Is it just me or is it difficult making a character to side with the Stormcloaks?

[Docta Corvina]

I'll have to come back to this later, sometime well after my coffee and breakfast, but I find it highly improbable that it's as simple as the Empire throwing a temper tantrum. Both sides have their opinions about the nature of the Concordat's signing, whether it was unnecessary and humiliating or necessary and a means to bide time to finally disable the true oppressors (the Thalmor/AD) in years to come. Neither side will ever agree on it, because it's so deeply entrenched in the underpinnings of either side's mantra.

Indeed, there is much more to be concerned about regarding the Stormcloaks than just the race angle. And if anyone's throwing a tantrum, it's Ulfric.

 

[Janus3003]

Umm, no. Ulfric challenged Toygg in fair combat, and won.

You can make a strong argument that it was murder, not a fair combat.

Then the Empire got upset because of something that they don't have authority over, and decides to take over.

Skyrim is a part of the Empire, so yes, they definitely have authority.

 

[BigBad]

I still have trouble with accepting Ulfric's challenge as legit.

I mean, once upon a time, it was perfectly okay for two dudes to settle their personal issues with a duel to the death. There was a whole ceremony, witnesses, the whole nine yards. But today, that's murder. You can explain to the judge all you want about how it was all done by the book, you're still going to jail for killing somebody.

Skyrim is an Imperial provice, and is governed by Imperial policy. Sure, maybe it was okay in the old days for a Nord to get a throne just by killing the dude on it, but that's not okay in modern Skyrim because the old Might Makes Right attitude of the barbarian ancient Nords has been superceded by the rule of law. Regicide is a capital crime, and is treason of the highest possible order. Rebellion against the Empire in violation of one's Legion oaths (don't forget, Ulfrice was once a legionaire) is also treason.

Also, does anyone else feel that it's remarkably short-sighted of Ulfric to attempt to re-establish this particular tradition (one that encourages and legitimizes regicide) when he has his own eyes on the throne?

 

[Janus3003]

I mean, once upon a time, it was perfectly okay for two dudes to settle their personal issues with a duel to the death. There was a whole ceremony, witnesses, the whole nine yards. But today, that's murder. You can explain to the judge all you want about how it was all done by the book, you're still going to jail for killing somebody.

"Your honor, I admit that I murdered that man by ripping his heart out and beating him with it, but he called 'Mortal Kombat' beforehand."
"I can attest to that, your honor. 'Mortal Kombat' was called."

 

[osheao]

i'm still not sure if tullius has the right to make the decision to execute the true high king of skyrim.?

regardless, the imperials lost all rightful and moral power in skyrim when they committed their pact of treason with the thalmor.

wisdom, justice and righteousness should have resulted in the immediate independence of skyrim.

they may think they have the right to execute a skyrim king during an uprising, but, they do not. instead, they merely continue down their immoral path with every decision they make.

 

[Valyn]

You can make a strong argument that it was murder, not a fair combat.

Skyrim is a part of the Empire, so yes, they definitely have authority.

General Tullius did not have authority to execute Ulfric, he won, fair and square. BOTH men used all of their weapons to their disposal. Tullius is the one commiting treason, dishing out a death-sentence to the High King.

 

[Janus3003]

i'm still not sure if tullius has the right to make the decision to execute the true high king of skyrim.?

And when exactly was Ulfric made high king? He sure left Solitude (which I remind you is populated by fellow Nords) in a big hurry after killing Torygg (who really wasn't his enemy).

 

[Valyn]

And when exactly was Ulfric made high king?

He became the high king when he challenged, deafeated, and killed Torygg in fair combat. As Ulfric being the Jarl of Windhelm, he is next in line.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Not to mention, if Ulfric was so vastly superior to Torygg in combat prowess, the use of the Voice should not have been necessary. I dare say it would have kept or brought more people to his side, who then might have seen the "duel" as less than an episode of unfair overkill. It doesn't matter if Torygg was naturally inept at the Greybeards' training or if he was just disinterested in it. Bottom line is that Ulfric utilized a tactic not at the King's disposal, in what was alleged to have been "fair" combat.

Ulfric should have just stuck to his proverbial flintlock pistol instead of pulling a semi-automatic. But then, it wouldn't have made for nearly as good of a song...

 

[Valyn]

Not to mention, if Ulfric was so vastly superior to Torygg in combat prowess, the use of the Voice should not have been necessary. I dare say it would have kept or brought more people to his side, who then otherwise might have seen the "duel" as less than an episode of unfair overkill. It doesn't matter if Torygg was naturally inept at the Greybeards' training or if he was just disinterested in it. Bottom line is that Ulfric utilized a tactic not at the King's disposal, in what was alleged to have been "fair" combat.

Ulfric should have just stuck to his flintlock pistol instead of pulling a semi-automatic. But then, it wouldn't have made for nearly as good of a song...

Shouldn't of Torygg known what he was up against? Need I remind you that Torygg ACCEPTED his challenge? Like i said before, both men utilized their weapons to the fullest, and Ulfric won.

 

[Janus3003]

He became the high king when he challenged, deafeated, and killed Torygg in fair combat. As Ulfric being the Jarl of Windhelm, he is next in line.

Nope!
Moot - The Elder Scrolls Wiki

 

[osheao]

He became the high king when he challenged, deafeated, and killed Torygg in fair combat. As Ulfric being the Jarl of Windhelm, he is next in line.

exactly.

and, the voice is integral to nord history and their high kings. ulfric proved his worthy lineage.

 

[BigBad]

Okay, for the Ulfric-supporters, we need to clear something up. Ulfric is never High King of Skyrim until and unless the Dragonborn completes the Civil War questline for the Stormcloaks. He is the Jarl of Windhelm. Even if one accepts his challenge of Torygg as legit, he's still not High King because no Moot was called and he was never confirmed or crowned, and because the existing body of government oversight does not support his claim. Tullius is a Military Governor of Skyrim, more or less the top Imperial official in the province and absolutely has the power to execute rebels and traitors. That's . . kind of what the Legion is -for-.

It's cool if you support Ulfric, but don't twist the facts just to try to make him look better.

 

[osheao]

Nope!
Moot - The Elder Scrolls Wiki

imperials commit treason.
imperials lose all right of power in skyrim.
high king of skyrim killed honorably in the old way.
moot postponed due to continued imperial immorality.

 

[Serebro Moniker]

Yes, the Imperials had NO right to execute any of those Stormcloaks. Cowards,

Don't tell me you honestly believe the Stormcloaks wouldn't have done the same had they captured Tullius and his boys.

 

[Janus3003]

imperials commit treason.

According to who? It's called a "civil war" for a reason. Not all Nords agree with Ulfric's claims.

 

[Valyn]

Don't tell me you honestly believe the Stormcloaks wouldn't have done the same had they captured Tullius and his boys.

It only depends on for what reason they are being executed. Tullius commited treason towards skyrim and her people for trying to execute the High King.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Shouldn't of Torygg known what he was up against? Need I remind you that Torygg ACCEPTED his challenge? Like i said before, both men utilized their weapons to the fullest, and Ulfric won.

He probably did. And as expected of a Nord King, he wasn't going to back down in the face of certain doom. Isn't that, like, what the homegrown Nord warriors say all of the time? The warriors that Ulfric and his ilk favor?

Honestly, poor Torygg can't win for losing.

And just because Ulfric could do something, doesn't mean that he should have. Would have saved himself some support in the end. But, again, the man is all about image and his legend in posterity. I'm not that surprised, nor should anyone be.

 

[Valyn]

According to who? It's called a "civil war" for a reason. Not all Nords agree with Ulfric's claims.

According to the law. General Tullius commited treason by killing the High King, and an innocent man.

 

[Serebro Moniker]

Shouldn't of Torygg known what he was up against? Need I remind you that Torygg ACCEPTED his challenge? Like i said before, both men utilized their weapons to the fullest, and Ulfric won.

Torygg had no choice! He could have either fought Ulfric or lose his throne.