Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Raijin]

"You killed the High King. What say you in your defense?"
-Pay Bounty (10,000)
"All right. We'll take any stolen goods you have. Come with me."

Or...
"I'm the Jarl's Thane. I order you to let me go."
"Oh, forgive me, Thane."

 

[Dagmar]

Also, I never understood why you always used the term Colovian instead of Imperial or the Empire. From my understanding Colovians are people who reside from the Colovian Highlands in Cyrodiil.

I actually prefer the term Colovian. I prefer to use the term Colovian because it distinguishes the race from the adjective Imperial used to describe things of or related to the Empire and removes any ambiguity regarding the context of the use of the word Imperial.

The Colovian Highlands are merely part of Colovia. Colovia is the territory that comprises western Cyrodiil while Nibenay is the territory that comprises eastern Cyrodiil. The two territories are naturally divided by the Topal Bay, Niben Bay and Lake Rumare. The term Colovian appears to be used as much, if not more than the term Imperial in the written lore to decribe the natives of Cyrodiil, while I'm hard pressed to recall where I've read a native referred to as Nibenese (they are somewhere in the written lore but I can't remember where at the moment). It's possible this is so because the most prominent Imperials were Colovians (Alessia, Reman, Titus) and each Imperial Empire started with a Colovian army.

 

[Moris]

I actually prefer the term Colovian. I prefer to use the term Colovian because it distinguishes the race from the adjective Imperial used to describe things of or related to the Empire and removes any ambiguity regarding the context of the use of the word Imperial.

The Colovian Highlands are merely part of Colovia. Colovia is the territory that comprises western Cyrodiil while Nibenay is the territory that comprises eastern Cyrodiil. The two territories are naturally divided by The topal Bay, Niben Bay and Lake Rumare. The term Colovian appears to be used as much, if not more than the term Imperial in the written lore to decribe the natives of Cyrodiil, while I'm hard pressed to recall where I've read a native referred to as Nibenese (they are somewhere in the written lore but I can't remember where at the moment). It's possible this is so because the most prominent Imperials were Colovians (Alessia, Reman, Titus) and each Imperial Empire started with a Colovian army.

That's very fascinating.

Knibber Knees seemed like it might have been some sort of offensive epithet, so it struck my fancy. As I recall, it's (edit: I mean Nibenese) used in Oblivion books a lot. Guide to Leyawiin, Guide to Bruma, etc.

 

[azali100]

I base it on Legal Basics:

These are the usual, day-to-day definitions used by legal experts (like myself), but both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation. In the Imperial City, legal counsel is available by persons like myself, but the provinces have no such system in place. Perhaps that will change in time. We can all hope so.
As a final note: the Tamriel legal system has its basis in the civilized, reasonable credo uttered by the prophet Marukh in the first era: "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." Were truer word ever spoke?

That legal counsel is available strongly suggests to me that that counsel must have a purpose. And if all are guilty until proven innocent suggests that some sort of process of proving innocence must be available to them.

Sigurd's shock upon hearing from Ralof that Ulfric was to be executed without a trial suggests a trial is not an alien concept, but accepted practice. Even if her shock is biased in his favor, she wouldn't have gotten the concept out of thin air.

"Both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation."

"The provinces have no such system in place. "

I think that might answer all questions on the subject. This isn't Imperial City. And I think Ulfric was a special case for the Empire, regardless of legal practices.

 

[Moris]

"Both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation."

"The provinces have no such system in place. "

I think that might answer all questions on the subject. This isn't Imperial City. And I think Ulfric was a special case for the Empire, regardless of legal practices.

I didn't fail to notice this. But I also don't know the date of this book. What may have been true of the provinces 200 years ago (or whenever), may not be true now.

Also, as in any confederated system, the individual provinces may offer more stringent protections than Cyrrodil, though this seems unlikely and is merely conjecture.

I definitely agree that a Jarl presents a special case. But I would think the sort of special case that required a public showing to instill in the populations a sense that justice was done and that his guilt was unquestioned. Peasants deserve summary justice. The aristocracy gets nervous at the idea of permitting it among themselves. One expects at least a trial by fire or a confession exacted under torture. What kind of history of such punishments for high treason by aristocrats does the Empire have, I wonder? How have they dealt with it in the past? Surely this is not the first case of its kind. And if it is, I would think the Empire would want to be very, very careful to set the right precedent.

 

[Dagmar]

That legal counsel is available strongly suggests to me that that counsel must have a purpose. And if all are guilty until proven innocent suggests that some sort of process of proving innocence must be available to them.

The purpose of legal counsel is to provide legal advice as implied by the context in which it's referred to by Anchivius, i.e. to be counseled on how the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation so one doesn't unknowingly break the law. It doesn't mean there's a system of legal advocacy. A process of proving innocence doesn't equate to a trial. It certainly doesn't equate to a right to a trial.

Sigurd's shock upon hearing from Ralof that Ulfric was to be executed without a trial suggests a trial is not an alien concept, but accepted practice. Even if her shock is biased in his favor, she wouldn't have gotten the concept out of thin air.

Sigurd is the Nord that works at Belethor's. You must mean Ralof's sister Gerdur. I don't recall if her reaction was shock, suprise or anger (maybe a combination) but it doesn't mean that there's a right to trial. It only reflects her expectation that there would be a trial. It does nothing to dismiss the possibility that there's no right to trial and that trials are at the discretion of the government.

You get a trial in Daggerfall. You're given the option to either plead your case or plead guilty. Pleading guilty gets you a lesser sentence, while failing to prove your innocence (speechcraft, I think) results in a harsher sentence.
I once managed to plead my way out of a punishment after slaughtering several people out on the streets in broad daylight. Hooray!

The guards are judge jury and executioner in Oblivion and Skyrim.
I don't even get to tell my side of the story about how I was just playing bucketball and accidentally hit a guard in the head with the cabbage.
What about Morrowind? The Crime article at UESP seems to indicate there are no trials and if you're bounty gets high enough you get a Death Warrant.

Who would want to pickpocket if you had to do a mini quest every time you failed?

Me!

 

[Raijin]

Ralof mention "They wouldn't dare give Ulfric a fair trial. Treason for fighting for your own people? All of Skyrim would've seen the truth then."

Why didn't the Empire sent Ulfric to Cyrodiil to be then given a fair trial? Ulfric did say that their were many witnesses during his fight against High King Torygg. It would've nice to have heard these witnesses side of the story.

I believe that EVERYONE, in spite of your title, to be given a fair and unbiased trial.

 

[Dagmar]

....Why didn't the Empire sent Ulfric to Cyrodiil to be then given a fair trial? Ulfric did say that their were many witnesses during his fight against High King Torygg. It would've nice to have heard these witnesses side of the story.

A fair trial wouldn't have made a difference in Ulfric's case. Remember his crime isn't murder, it's the killing of the High King in any way shape or form and he has no defense to that charge. Ulfric's not the kind of man that's going to deny or lie about what he did. Whatever bad things people may think about him that's simply not in his character so if there was a trial he would openly admit what he did which would make for a very short trial and then his execution.

I think the reason why the Empire decided to kill him in Helgen was to minimize any impact his execution might have in being influental as a martyr.

 

[Moris]

TL;DR

And, indeed, it is Ralof who mentions that the Empire "wouldn't dare give Ulfric a fair trial." Gerdur is surprised and angry at the notion of summary execution, calling the Empire "cowards" when Ralof mentions it.

Also, Ralof says, "We were outnumbered five to one, at least. Ulfric ordered us to stop fighting. Didn't want us all to die for nothing, I guess. I thought they were taking us south to Cyrodil. Parade us in front of the Emperor."

Why would he believe that this a likely scenario?

-----

At the mill in Riverwood:

Ralof: I can't remember when I last slept... Where to start? Well, the news you heard about Ulfric was true. The Imperials ambushed outside Darkwater Crossing. Like they knew exactly where we'd be. That was... two days ago now. We stopped in Helgen this morning, and I thought it was all over. Had us lined up to the headman's axe and ready to start chopping.

Gerdur: The cowards!

Ralof: They wouldn't dare give Ulfric a fair trial. Treason, for fighting for your own people! All of Skyrim would have seen the truth then.

If when you are walking to Riverwood, you ask Ralof about the ambush, he says this:

Prisoner: How did you end up as Imperial prisoners?

Ralof: I was assigned to Ulfric's guard. We were on our way to Darkwater Crossing, in the south of Eastmarch. Imperials were waiting for us. As pretty an ambush as I ever saw. We were outnumbered five to one, at least. Ulfric ordered us to stop fighting. Didn't want us all to die for nothing, I guess. I thought they were taking us south to Cyrodil. Parade us in front of the Emperor. But then we stopped in Helgen, and you know the rest.

About Balgruuf, Ralof and Gerdur say:

Ralof: Jarl Balgruuf still hasn't declared for one side or the other, so at least you won't run into any Imperials along the way.

Gerdur: Jarl Balgruuf? I don't want to be disrespectful, as he's ruled Whiterun Hold well for years, but he seems in over his head now. He's been trying to stay out of the war, but it can't last. He's going to have to pick a side. I'm afraid he's going to make the wrong choice.

Prisoner: Why? Is he loyal to the Empire?

Gerdur: I wouldn't say that. But he and Ulfric have been at odds for years, and I'm afraid Balgruuf will end up siding with the Empire because of it. But it's hard to believe that even Balgruuf would choose Elisif over Ulfric.

---

Hmm. A personal feud? I probably heard this dialogue over a year ago, and never bothered to listen to it again because I don't remember it. I am intrigued. I want to know what Balgruuf and Ulfric were at odds over.

 

[Raijin]

A fair trial wouldn't have made a difference in Ulfric's case. Remember his crime isn't murder, it's the killing of the High King in any way shape or form and he has no defense to that charge. Ulfric's not the kind of man that's going to deny or lie about what he did. Whatever bad things people may think about him that's simply not in his character so if there was a trial he would openly admit what he did which would make for a very short trial and then his execution.

I think the reason why the Empire decided to kill him in Helgen was to minimize any impact his execution might have in being influental as a martyr.

According to General Tullius in battle of Windhelm: "Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over."

These are a lot of accusations. Granted Hes clearly guilty for insurrection and high treason but murder of Imperial citizens? The assassination of King Torygg? Unless if I see a trial where I can hear both sides of the stories I'm going to stay that Ulfric is innocent on those 2 major charges that Tullius has against him. I want to speak with the witnesses that Ulfric told me about. I want to learn more about the old Nordic tradition that Ulfric and other nords are telling me about, to which I can not find any information of. If using the tongue is part of the Nordic tradition then what Ulfric did was legal. If Torygg accepted the duel base on the old Nordic tradition then the killing was not illegal.

 

[Dagmar]

Unless if I see a trial where I can hear both sides of the stories I'm going to stay that Ulfric is innocent on those 2 major charges that Tullius has against him.

It's academic. The punishment for treason is death. It's not as if he'll be punished further after they execute him for treason. At the end of the day even with a fair trial he's not going to be any less dead.

 

[Moris]

Well, according to Gerdur, Ulfric accused Torygg of treason first. One supposes that opens up the possibility to challenge him legally -- under Skyrim rules. After all, if Torygg is a traitor, he's no longer the High King. Either that or the fight is the way to settle who is right about the charge. Torygg's loss = he's a traitor. Torygg wins = innocent. Making the fight a trial by combat to settle the charge of treason. Not a duel.

What do we know about Skyrim's customs in this regard? Can any Jarl make such a charge against another and it have official enough force that it demands a response?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Perhaps they didn't give him a trial because they knew the Thalmor were behind it all, they know the Thalmor are behind the Civil War and probably knew he would escape with Thalmor aid. Hence the reason the Thalmor were at the execution.

Tullius and others mention the Thalmor are behind the Civil War and benefit from it on going, they would never let Ulfric reach cyrodiil for trial.

It seems more logical why Tullius would suddenly change his plans they were heading for Cyrodiil for a trial, I believe the Thalmor started snooping around which made him alter course.

 

[Dagmar]

Well, according to Gerdur, Ulfric accused Torygg of treason first.

No, she said he called him out as a traitor. It's not a legal accusation. It's just the same rhetoric he repeats throughout the game unless you suffer the notion that treason in Skyrim means supporting the Empire. That's pretty much the defining criterion for his calling any Nord a traitor. Torygg was the High King regardless of what Ulfric's opinion may have been of him.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Perhaps they didn't give him a trial because they knew the Thalmor were behind it all, they know the Thalmor are behind the Civil War and probably knew he would escape with Thalmor aid. Hence the reason the Thalmor were at the execution.

Tullius and others mention the Thalmor are behind the Civil War and benefit from it on going, they would never let Ulfric reach cyrodiil for trial.

It seems more logical why Tullius would suddenly change his plans they were heading for Cyrodiil for a trial, I believe the Thalmor started snooping around which made him alter course.

Adding to myself here, I think everyone would of done the exact same thing as Tullius, he isn't an idiot. He is a strategist and plans moves ahead. It would takes quite sometime to reach the Imperial city normally let alone transporting prisoners in a slow moving small convoy, the Thalmor would of just slaughtered the Imperial's guarding and probably would of killed the other prisoners who were tied down, just leave Ulfric alive and he'd be a great hero escaping Imperial capture killing his captives single handed avenging his fallen comrades.

Now if you were Tullius, you'd change course at the last second, catching the Thalmor off guard, heading into Helgan an Imperial stronghold held by an Imperial garrison so the Thalmor could not get to him. They'd have to attack the fortified town to get to him and probably would fail which would spark a war which the Thalmor are not ready for, they plan very far ahead and would never risk direct engagement. A small prison transport would be an easier target as they slowly made their way, an Imperial held stronghold not a chance.

You'd have to be an idiot to truly believe the Thalmor would sit by as a slow moving limited armed convoy made it's way to end their grand schemes.

 

[Moris]

Adding to myself here, I think everyone would of done the exact same thing as Tullius, he isn't an idiot. He is a strategist and plans moves ahead. It would takes quite sometime to reach the Imperial city normally let alone transporting prisoners in a slow moving small convoy, the Thalmor would of just slaughtered the Imperial's guarding and probably would of killed the other prisoners who were tied down, just leave Ulfric alive and he'd be a great hero escaping Imperial capture killing his captives single handed avenging his fallen comrades.

Now if you were Tullius, you'd change course at the last second, catching the Thalmor off guard, heading into Helgan an Imperial stronghold held by an Imperial garrison so the Thalmor could not get to him. They'd have to attack the fortified town to get to him and probably would fail which would spark a war which the Thalmor are not ready for, they plan very far ahead and would never risk direct engagement. A small prison transport would be an easier target as they slowly made their way, an Imperial held stronghold not a chance.

You'd have to be an idiot to truly believe the Thalmor would sit by as a slow moving limited armed convoy made it's way to end their grand schemes.

And after all that maneuvering to avoid the Thalmor, you would invite Elenwen in to Helgen to witness the execution? Because if you pay attention during the opening scenes, you will see that she's there.

 

[Moris]

There's not much as it relates to lore in this. But while I was searching for video of the opening scenes, I found this version of the events in Helgen.

It does amaze me how much more dramatic the scene can seem with cinematic camera angles and cuts. I must need some serious time away from Skryrim, because I enjoyed this one a bit more than I should have. Then again, I want to make some of these sorts of things myself, so it was interesting for me to see what could be done with a set piece.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And after all that maneuvering to avoid the Thalmor, you would invite Elenwen in to Helgen to witness the execution? Because if you pay attention during the opening scenes, you will see that she's there.

I know that she is there, she is there trying to find a way to stop it from happening. If you read the Thalmor dossier it will confirm them trying to stop it, I doubt she was invited but you can't turn her down from entering as they are an "ally" There is only two of them if I remember correctly, more than likely she was keeping a close eye on the convoy so when they did ambush them she could confront Ulfric. She does like stirring him up given their past 'relationship'

Both sides are against each other but none make open moves, to deny them entry would breach the terms of the White-Gold Concordat which gives the Thalmor free reign across the Empire.
They have to pretend they get along, allowing two Thalmor entry when they come knocking isn't that bad when they are surrounded by an Imperial garrison.

Or if she was indeed invited it could of been a way Tullius could rub it in her face that their plan has failed.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

((They can wear pants if they want to... leave Elsweyr behind. Khajiit with no pants, and kitty needs no pants, well that's no cat of mine.

Safety pants. :3 ))

You're a sly kitten, regarding your sig.

 

[Ozan]

You're a sly kitten, regarding your sig.

((Catchy, huh? If you want me to remove it, you gotta say enchanted words that allow the sig to be changed. Ready?

"I, Grogmar Ghrobash, declares the words of Duke Baron Sir Don Reginald Richard Roderick van Ozan Safetybottom Senior IV the Magnificent Bastard, esquire and PhD, both magnificent and reasonable as such words have never been spoken by more magnificent minds.

Oh, Mighty Ozan, though thou words teareth upon my heart strings, I beg of ye to retract such words for they may never compare to his, the mighty and Magnificent, Ozan!

Your tongue of silver and heart of gold is such a glory that no one questions why women faint and lose breath in your very presence, and grown men cry in shame!

Nay, in fact, it requires all my strength to say such words for how may a mere mortal such as I compare?

Alas... I've not wore my safety pants this day.

Release the binds and my torment! Free me from your cruel charm! Release the dirt of my words from your grasp! Kick my puppy!

How I beg thee!"

Then poof. Sig changed. Be sure to roll your R's.))