Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Do you understand what I mean now? Even if he were making any credible or factual post it's hard to take him seriously.

 

[Moris]

Please cite your source that establishes that there are trials and legal counsel as part of the legal system anywhere in Tamriel because that's fairly contrary to my understanding of the lore. I've never gotten a trial in Skyrim (I got arrested sooooo many times just for playing cabbage bucketball in the capital cities) or Oblivion when being arrested for a crime and from what I understand you don't get one in Daggerfall or Morrowind either. A guard says your guilty, and you submit to arrest and have to pay a fine or serve time without trial, and they try to kill you if you don't submit. As far as I can see there's no due process in the games and there's no evidence of any due process in the documents and literature found in the games.

The notion of meaningful due process isn't something you find outside of the modern or contemporary world. In medieval and older times trials were largely political tools to the extent they were ever granted and the concept of a right to trial let alone a fair trial was all but non existent. Some trials were riduiculous because they were essentially "tests" where you passed them if you died (but at least you were found to be innocent!) Trial by fire, trial by water and alls sorts of inane concepts of "due process" that I'd just as soon take a pass on and simply pay the axeman to do it in one clean swing. Even in the Roman Empire if you were caught red handed committing a capital offense there was no trial. You were simply executed.

I base it on Legal Basics:

These are the usual, day-to-day definitions used by legal experts (like myself), but both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation. In the Imperial City, legal counsel is available by persons like myself, but the provinces have no such system in place. Perhaps that will change in time. We can all hope so.
As a final note: the Tamriel legal system has its basis in the civilized, reasonable credo uttered by the prophet Marukh in the first era: "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." Were truer word ever spoke?

That legal counsel is available strongly suggests to me that that counsel must have a purpose. And if all are guilty until proven innocent suggests that some sort of process of proving innocence must be available to them.

Sigurd's shock upon hearing from Ralof that Ulfric was to be executed without a trial suggests a trial is not an alien concept, but accepted practice. Even if her shock is biased in his favor, she wouldn't have gotten the concept out of thin air.

 

[Raijin]

Look at what The empire brought to Skyrim... those annoying altmers who thinks they have the right slaughter anyone that they want... especially when you question about Talos.

 

[Raijin]

Do you understand what I mean now? Even if he were making any credible or factual post it's hard to take him seriously.

I've been posting up facts and transcripts and you've been ignoring them... you even went as far as to use your Xbox to avoid responding to my points.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

If someone told me everything I ever said in an entire thread was completely wrong, I would not acknowledge it either, especially if he'd already accused me of hyperbole. C'mon. He's said some valid things. Trouble is, if you don't acknowledge those, how is he going to learn what you think is valuable, useful, or valid?

The only thing valid I've ever seen him post are quotes, and that's because those are seen in the game. The rest of his post are his own bias opinion with no basis at all to where he says they are fact. No matter how much it may contradict the lore or be disproven.

 

[Janus3003]

from what I understand you don't get one in Daggerfall

You get a trial in Daggerfall. You're given the option to either plead your case or plead guilty. Pleading guilty gets you a lesser sentence, while failing to prove your innocence (speechcraft, I think) results in a harsher sentence.
I once managed to plead my way out of a punishment after slaughtering several people out on the streets in broad daylight. Hooray!

 

[Ozan]

Something Ozan embraced in Elsweyr. Opinions are merely opinions. Should one disagree, it's because their opinions were based off of different foundations.

Raijin has based his opinion off of Ulfric. Supporters of the Empire declares what he thinks is wrong. The Colovian seems content with telling people what to think... what to do... how to worship...

Khajiit thinks all he is saying is that he is not surprised how quickly spoken words of a man who speaks to his confidant without burden or expectations are quickly ignored and dubbed wrong. Interesting, no?

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I've been posting up facts and transcripts and you've been ignoring them... you even went as far as to use your Xbox to avoid responding to my points.

I've already replied to your post along with others, you're the one choosing to ignore it all.

I'm on my xbox because my computer is being used by someone else atm.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Something Ozan embraced in Elsweyr. Opinions are merely opinions. Should one disagree, it's because their opinions were based off of different foundations.

Raijin has based his opinion off of Ulfric. Supporters of the Empire declares what he thinks is wrong. The Colovian seems content with telling people what to think... what to do... how to worship...

Khajiit thinks all he is saying is that he is not surprised how quickly spoken words of a man who speaks to his confidant without burden or expectations are quickly ignored and dubbed wrong. Interesting, no?

What you and Moris say is speaking your opinion. What Raijin claims is his opinions to be fact.

 

[Moris]

You get a trial in Daggerfall. You're given the option to either plead your case or plead guilty. Pleading guilty gets you a lesser sentence, while failing to prove your innocence (speechcraft, I think) results in a harsher sentence.
I once managed to plead my way out of a punishment after slaughtering several people out on the streets in broad daylight. Hooray!

To some extent, you get a mini trial in Skyrim.

Guard stops you and says, "You have been accused of committing crimes against (whatever). What say you in your defense?

You then get to defend yourself using bribery, persuasion, etc. Or you can flee (nolo contendere, I guess)

Guard then renders judgment.

No, it's not a good trial as we understand it. But it has the main elements. That it's not a drawn out process might, possibly be understood to be a function of game mechanics. Who would want to pickpocket if you had to do a mini quest every time you failed?

For big crimes, though, such as treason, I'd think we could expect some sort of "show", at least. Not so much when it's Roggvir, gate guard. But when it's a Jarl? Surely....

 

[Janus3003]

For big crimes, though, such as treason, I'd think we could expect some sort of show, at least. Not so much when it's Roggvir, gate guard. But when it's a Jarl? Surely....

"You killed the High King. What say you in your defense?"
-Pay Bounty (10,000)
"All right. We'll take any stolen goods you have. Come with me."

Or...
"I'm the Jarl's Thane. I order you to let me go."
"Oh, forgive me, Thane."

 

[Moris]

"You killed the High King. What say you in your defense?"
-Pay Bounty (10,000)
"All right. We'll take any stolen goods you have. Come with me."

Or...
"I'm the Jarl's Thane. I order you to let me go."
"Oh, forgive me, Thane."

I meant, when it's the Jarl, we could expect more than this. But the thought of this scenario just now did make me nearly spurt ale through my nostrils!

 

[Ozan]

I meant, when it's the Jarl, we could expect more than this. But the thought of this scenario just now did make me nearly spurt ale through my nostrils!

Ozan doesn't know, he feels that was quite accurate for a guess.

 

[Janus3003]

Thanks for the rep! Sorry 'bout the pants, Ozan.
But c'mon. Khajiit are cats. You don't need pants.

 

[Moris]

Thanks for the rep! Sorry 'bout the pants, Ozan.
But c'mon. Khajiit are cats. You don't need pants.

I am so not going there. I am not going there. I will not say it. I won't. I won't. I won't.

 

[Moris]

"You killed the High King. What say you in your defense?"
-Pay Bounty (10,000)
"All right. We'll take any stolen goods you have. Come with me."

Or...
"I'm the Jarl's Thane. I order you to let me go."
"Oh, forgive me, Thane."

I have been researching how to do Skyrim machinima.

I think I just found the perfect script.

 

[Ozan]

I am so not going there. I am not going there. I will not say it. I won't. I won't. I won't.

((They can wear pants if they want to... leave Elsweyr behind. Khajiit with no pants, and kitty needs no pants, well that's no cat of mine.

Safety pants. :3 ))

 

[Moris]

((They can wear pants if they want to... leave Elsweyr behind. Khajiit with no pants, and kitty needs no pants, well that's no cat of mine.

Safety pants. :3 ))

See, safety pants. That's kinda what I was thinking... you know like how you can wear gloves to break yourself of the bad habit of biting your nails? Yeah. That kinda thing.

 

[Ozan]

((/wrist))

 

[Moris]

((/wrist))

Alas, the dumb Briton does not understand these arcane markings.