Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Squirrel_killer-

The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
Morrowind is not part of the Empire. It was conqured by Argonia after the Oblivion Crisis at the beginning of the Fourth Era.

By securing unconditional freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion for all of Hammerfell including the freedom to worship whoever they want. Yep the really paid for it. :rolleyes:
Just a question, but I was under the impression only a portion of Morrowind was conquered by Argonia. Am I mistaken in that understanding?
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Just a question, but I was under the impression only a portion of Morrowind was conquered by Argonia. Am I mistaken in that understanding?
I'm not sure as the source for the lore is the book The Infernal City which I don't have (yet) but the UESP Lore Article on Morrowind citing it states that the Argonians of the Black Marsh invaded Morrowind after the Ministry of Truth crashed into Vvardenfell forcing the remaining Dunmer to scatter all over Tamriel. However it also states that Dunmer are returning to their homeland to rebuild and cites The Infernal City as the source for that as well. If anyone has the book perhaps they can clarify but in any case Morrowind is not part of the current Empire.
 

Squirrel_killer-

The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
I'm not sure as the source for the lore is the book The Infernal City which I don't have (yet) but the UESP Lore Article on Morrowind citing it states that the Argonians of the Black Marsh invaded Morrowind after the Ministry of Truth crashed into Vvardenfell forcing the remaining Dunmer to scatter all over Tamriel. However it also states that Dunmer are returning to their homeland to rebuild and cites The Infernal City as the source for that as well. If anyone has the book perhaps they can clarify but in any case Morrowind is not part of the current Empire.
Well, it looks like I need a trip to my book shelf. I believe I got it as a gift, but haven't had a chance to read it yet. I will try to clarify this when I have the chance.
 

SprSynJn

Member
Just joined the Imperials last night, after playing for more than 130 hours with my Dark Elf. Figured it was the best decision since I'm not a Nord. Neither side to me is better than the other, in my opinion, and I'll be having my next character join the Stormcloaks for sure.
 
I have neither the time nor the interest in going line by line through somebody's post as is popular in forum debates, but this one line did catch my eye and I have to mention it.


Third, there's no reliable basis to assume that Dawnstar is virtually defenseless and even less so to speculate that it would remain so. The meager number of guards and population in general is a function of scaling to make the game playable and to scale the cities relative to one another.

To this, I have to say that I have every reason to expect that Dawnstar is mostly defenseless, as the existing example of Dawnstar is the only real representation of the town at all.

Make it bigger, and you've still got a sleepy town sitting on the water with no defensive structures of any kind, only... bigger.

You mentioned that Skyrim's navy would protect the north. That assumes that Skyrim has a navy worth mentioning. Do they? I've never heard of it, and while I don't doubt you'll say that you have, I don't really think that you have either.

We have heard a bit about the imperial navy, but since this hypothetical situation assumes that Skyrim won't be under the empire's protection, these forces won't apply in the equation.

Skyrim's guards complain again and again that the empire thinks that the nords are all lawless beasts. To this I say that a guy murders their king and half of the country sides with him. Just because people think unfavorable opinions about you are unfair doesn't mean those opinions are false.

I'd be very surprised if Skyrim's military ships were of the same calibur of the Thalmor's. For one thing, Summerset is an island nation that launched a successful military campaign that rocked the empire literally to its core. True, the dominion isn't entirely composed of island nations, but while they tell us that the bosmer are a part of the dominion as well, I am left with the impression that they're not the driving force behind it - based partially on the lack of bosmer Thalmor represented in Skyrim, and the lack of Bosmer representation in Dominion documents. Arrogant though the Altmer are, they're also really intelligent, at least according to the game (I'd happily argue that there are a lot of idiot altmer). Altmer ship designs are likely far ahead of the curve.

Nords are stubborn to the core - represented in the series many times. Nords do things because they want to, or because it's a sacred tradition. You can't swing a dead cat over your head in Skyrim without banging it against a sacred Nord tradition. As a people they tend to be full of bravado, courage, and pigheadedness, and short on patience, level-headedness, and problem solving logic skills. If you do everything by tradition, your technology and techniques will naturally be behind the times. This doesn't bode well for Skyrim's fighting vessels, assuming that there are any.

So back to Dawnstar's example, if we simply made assumptions about Dawnstar based off of what we want to be there and not what's actually represented (or at least hinted at) in game, then where do we draw the line? Sure, a Dawnstar with a fortified port and an active military force, defended with dragons and maybe an army of sharks with freakin' laser beams on their heads - that could truly be an effective deterrant to invasion.

I just see no indication that any of this exists, or should be included in the discussion.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
So back to Dawnstar's example, if we simply made assumptions about Dawnstar based off of what we want to be there and not what's actually represented (or at least hinted at) in game, then where do we draw the line? Sure, a Dawnstar with a fortified port and an active military force, defended with dragons and maybe an army of sharks with freakin' laser beams on their heads - that could truly be an effective deterrant to invasion.

I just see no indication that any of this exists, or should be included in the discussion.
This is a truly LOLable statement. Your entire argument is one gigantic assumption after another with nothing to substantiate it but wild speculation and yet when someone else speculates in a far more plausible manner your reaction is to argue that it's not appropriate.

You were wrong on the lore on virtually every account when you tried to use it as a basis for your arguments and you were wrong on actual real life history in your attempt to do the same. Putting aside that there's little to no basis to believe the Aldmeri Dominion even has the means to move an invasion force by sea that far away, or to believe that it could navigate a fleet of that size through the arctic Sea of Ghosts laden with icebergs, frozen ocean and rock lined shores without the benefit of Skyrim's lighthouses, absolutely no basis to believe it can reinforce it from that far away, and that it would leave the Aldmeri Dominion's borders vulnerable making the strategy foolish and improbable, Dawnstar is a garrisoned capital city regardless of what you may believe.

If you're only willing to go by what you can visually verify in deciding what the size of the garrison is at Dawnguard then you're left in the absurd position of believing that the combined forces of the Imperial Legion and Stormcloaks number less than a hundred strong and the entire population of Skyrim is less than a thousand. The reason why cities and the populace in general, including the town garrisons, are so small is because the game has to scale the numbers down to make the game playable, not because the developers want you to believe that those numbers are definitive. There's also more than a heavy hint as to how easily the city could be fortified. It's called the Tower of Dawn.
 

SprSynJn

Member
A more serious question if I may gentlemen? Am I going to be allowed into Windhelm now that I've joined the Legion? I was attacked when I came up onto a Stormcloak camp. Is the same going to happen when I enter their city?
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
A more serious question if I may gentlemen? Am I going to be allowed into Windhelm now that I've joined the Legion? I was attacked when I came up onto a Stormcloak camp. Is the same going to happen when I enter their city?
No. The NPC's in capital cities don't react to your civil war faction status.
 

123

Active Member
Ulfric is an idiot. He's using a respectable cause to try to force himself into a position of power and segregate Skyrim. There's a reason Abraham Lincoln fought one of the largest wars in American history just to keep the country together:

United we stand, divided we fall.

If Skyrim breaks off from the empire, all will be lost to the Aldmeri Dominion. Maybe not immediately, but it will. If Tamriel stands divided and act as individuals rather than brothers, they will lose the second great war.
 

NinesVoerman

New Member
Stormcloaks all the way. The Imperials were gonna chop my head off and are a bunch of fascists so I didn't see any reason not to side with the Stormcloaks.
 

Captain Nagisus

Jake the Dog!
Just a question, but I was under the impression only a portion of Morrowind was conquered by Argonia. Am I mistaken in that understanding?

As far as I know, all of it was conquered by Argonians. From Tear to Blacklight. Why wouldn't the Argonians conquer all of it anyway? If they even wanted Vvardenfell, what with the eruption, they could just take boats or swim across and conquer that, along with the mainland. Besides, you have to remember how Dunmer used to enslave Argonians. Argonians have grudges.

And, back on topic. Ulfric may seem like a good, Nord man, and pretty awesome (what with his deep voice and all the cool stuff he says like "Legends don't burn down villages"), but in reality he just wants to be High King. He has no regard for the people of Skyrim. He leads along all these (sometimes perfectly nice!) hundreds of Nords, telling them he will make them free, that it was a good and honourable duel when he killed Torygg, that Torygg was a coward who was always kissing the soles of the Emperor's boots. And he leads them to their deaths. Face it, Stormcloaks, he's a racist fraud. He segregates Dunmer, and Argonians especially, from the regular people of Windhelm, and forces them into slums and assemblages while him and his lackeys drink fine mead in the warmth of the Palace of the Kings. Here's what's likely to happen if Ulfric becomes High King: Ulfric is very happy, all the Nords are happy for a bit. The Empire are very unhappy. Later, Skyrim becomes poor, starving and weak because of the closed off trade with the rest of the Empire, and it becomes virtually impossible to trade with Hammerfell without taking a long path through High Rock (and who's to say they'll let you through!). Not to mention the (now ever-groing) Argonian government will probably despise you. No matter what happens, somebody will probably end up conquering Skyrim and forcing Ulfric out of Tamriel on a raft to Atmora. Maybe the Thalmor will casually pass through their lands, then through the Empire's lands, and straight into Skyrim. Perhaps the Argonians will make it revenge for all the racism and take it over. Who knows? All I know is that the Thalmor can't take over Tamriel yet (as we all know they want to), and that's good enough for me. And if the Dunmer have to have no land, and the Nords have to be unhappy with their government to keep that safe and sound and guaranteed, so be it.
 

Flint firestorm

The leading man, who else?
Just a question, but I was under the impression only a portion of Morrowind was conquered by Argonia. Am I mistaken in that understanding?
I'm not sure as the source for the lore is the book The Infernal City which I don't have (yet) but the UESP Lore Article on Morrowind citing it states that the Argonians of the Black Marsh invaded Morrowind after the Ministry of Truth crashed into Vvardenfell forcing the remaining Dunmer to scatter all over Tamriel. However it also states that Dunmer are returning to their homeland to rebuild and cites The Infernal City as the source for that as well. If anyone has the book perhaps they can clarify but in any case Morrowind is not part of the current Empire.
okay, here are some direct quotes from the book regarding the invasion of morrowind:
"...it wasnt enough that the ministry fell, the impact caused the volcano that was the heart and namesake of Vvardenfell to explode. ash lava and tidal waves had done their work, and when that was calmed, the argonains had come, eager to repay what survived of the dark elves for millennia of abuse and enslavment."
"...the dummer have preyed on my people for centuries. we paid them back for that. the few that remain are scattered. most are on soulstheim, an island far north of here."
 

Spiral Power!

Abenddrachen
The reason why cities and the populace in general, including the town garrisons, are so small is because the game has to scale the numbers down to make the game playable, not because the developers want you to believe that those numbers are definitive.

I can't remember where I heard this or who told me, but regardless of how big and/or detailed a game world is, its a representation of the world its based on, it isn't the world itself.
 

Squirrel_killer-

The blade in the dark and the hand at your throat
okay, here are some direct quotes from the book regarding the invasion of morrowind:
"...it wasnt enough that the ministry fell, the impact caused the volcano that was the heart and namesake of Vvardenfell to explode. ash lava and tidal waves had done their work, and when that was calmed, the argonains had come, eager to repay what survived of the dark elves for millennia of abuse and enslavment."
"...the dummer have preyed on my people for centuries. we paid them back for that. the few that remain are scattered. most are on soulstheim, an island far north of here."
Thank you, I thought only the southern third to half was actually conquered by Argonia. I am glad that was cleared up for me.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
...Later, Skyrim becomes poor, starving and weak because of the closed off trade with the rest of the Empire, and it becomes virtually impossible to trade with Hammerfell without taking a long path through High Rock (and who's to say they'll let you through!)...
The Empire would consist of only two provinces. Closing off trade to them doesn't close off trade to the world. Your understanding of basic Tamrielic geography is lacking. Skyrim has a common border with Hammerfell that is actually less mountainous than its borders with High Rock or Cyrodiil. It can also continue trade through it's port cities. What will hurt Skyrim is the loss of subsidies from the Empire, which guaranteed that the province always had sufficient food and provisions, but over time Skyrim can recover from that. Conceptually you're right though in the sense that Skyrim will be hurting for years to come with questionable resources that became further depleted by the Stormcloak Rebellion. Ulfric shows no abilites as a statesman which will only exacerbate the situation.
...Maybe the Thalmor will casually pass through their lands, then through the Empire's lands, and straight into Skyrim...
Adding the word "casually" doesn't magically make this any more feasible than any other time it's been argued. As a matter of common sense it's not going to happen. All entry points for an invasion force on the borders of the Empire are going to be watched vigilantly since the Great War. Mede doesn't trust the Aldmeri Dominion any further then he can throw them. No nation is going to allow a rival nation to land and move a massive invasion force through its territory. To do so would be monumentally stupid.
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
I'm playing as a high elf, and the moment I walk into Windhelm, an elf is being harassed by racist bastards. That makes things...simple. So very, very simple. Because that is when I decided that I'd join the Imperials, forgive them for that little execution, and crush those racist bastards who seem to forget their honor when it comes to their Empire!
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
I'm playing as a high elf, and the moment I walk into Windhelm, an elf is being harassed by racist bastards. That makes things...simple. So very, very simple. Because that is when I decided that I'd join the Imperials, forgive them for that little execution, and crush those racist bastards who seem to forget their honor when it comes to their Empire!

Oh wow. So you walk into Windhelm and saw a couple of nords "harassing" a dark elf by accusing her of being an Imperial spy for refusing to help the Stormcloaks. You as a high elf (My high elf didn't care one way or another) got so offended by what you saw that you went straight to solitude to join the legion. Wow! I had no idea that racism was such a highest priority over the legion wanting to lawlessly murder you at the beginning of the scene by wanting to chop off your head. How can that be easily forgiving? How can you forgive someone that was inches away of killing you?

The Empire is quite know to sentenced people to die without a fair trial. Look at Ulfric. Would the Empire dare give this man a fair trial? No. Off to the chopping block in spite of Torygg accepting the duel.
 

FullmetalHeart20

Well-Known Member
To be fair, that was one Captian who seemed to be ignoring the Legions own rules, and the only surviving soldier apologizes for everything. The Stormcloaks entire agenda boils down to how elves suck. My Dovahkiin has no place in the world they want.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
...Look at Ulfric. Would the Empire dare give this man a fair trial? No. Off to the chopping block in spite of Torygg accepting the duel.
So what? We have no idea what the standards of the adjudication are in the Empire, or anywhere else in Tamriel for that matter. The Empire's methods are no less or more enlightened than anywhere else in the world as far as we know. What we do know is that what Ulfric did was high treason punishable by death under Imperial Law. Torygg's consent is completely irrelevant as has been pointed out to you numerous times before. This is beyond dispute and simpy a matter of undeniable fact, so it doesn't really matter whether the Empire goes through the motions of a trial. Ulfric's guilty and therefore subject to execution irrespective of any trial.
 
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