Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

You just can't hate the Empire over one Officer, you need more than that.

If that is your main argument that Captain? then by your reasoning, I should hate all Nords cause of how one in Windhelm treats Dark Elves, I should hate all Orcs because I met a bad Orc Chief, I should hate all Argonians because one tried to rob me, I should hate all Dark Elves because one tried to assassinate me, I should hate all High Elves because of Arcano, I should hate all Bosmer because I met a Bosmer Bandit, I should hate all Red guards because I met a Red guard bandit. I should hate all Khajiit because I met a Khajiit bandit.

I just do not trust anyone fighting in the Civil war, Legion or Stormcloak. I just go with what I want at the time.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I just do not trust anyone fighting in the Civil war, Legion or Stormcloak. I just go with what I want at the time.

Thalmor supporter aye.

 

[Jeremius]

Thalmor supporter aye.

I hate the Thalmor too, just so you know. I have said it before, I am anti-Civil War.

 

[theoperation]

Because it's a matter of gameplay design that does not correlate with the actual workings of the in-game universe, every Khajiit you see in Skyrim is either a traveling merchant, smuggler, mercenary, thief, or a variation of the former. This does not mean that every single Khajit in Tamriel, is either a drug dealer or a drug user, even so, making this assumption on the few ones you've seen accross Skyrim is, apart from ludicrous, a prejudiced generalization.



Even if all of this was true, which I don't believe it is, how exactly are these rational measures solving the skooma problem ? Do you think it's logical to prevent the entry of all panamenean citizens into the US on the grounds that they will flood the country with cocaine ?

I didn't say that every Khajiit in Tamriel is a Skooma user or dealer. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Oblivion had some Khajiit that had no Skooma upon their person. I'm also not saying I think it's right to do. But I'm saying that it's Skyrim's way of doing it. I'm sure if they had modern screening technology like we do now, then they'd be happy to let anyone in after they've been through security checks. And if this were the middle ages, you can bet America would have a stricter border policy. Of course modern nations like America didn't exist back then, so why do these modern standards apply to Skyrim?

I can't believe I'm reading this.

I hate to be offensive here friend, you've been very polite and educated in this discussion, but you're either a young man (or woman) with incompletely formed thoughts on important matters like prejudice and discrimination, or you're a racist.

As far as what I can tell my thoughts on important matters like prejudice and discrimination are pretty well formed. And I haven't got a racist bone in my body.

What I think you're doing is applying modern values on medieval people. This policy of not allowing people of a certain race into the city walls wasn't exactly uncommon in the middle ages. Hell, it took until the 1960's until my country allowed non-white people in. Of course,As far as medieval societies go, Skyrim is pretty damn progressive. And as far as I can tell, I never said "It's a great idea to not allow Khajiit in the city", I just said "I can see why they did it, despite it being wrong."

er
It starts with the letter "R" and it ends in "acism".

Agreed, but historically there's been more racism shown by the Dunmer than the Nords, especially towards the Argonians, who they used as slaves. So I tend to think that the Dunmer have something to do with the Argonians living outside the walls aswell.

Rolff's attitude is precisely the one which is not understandable, he is not being discriminated against in any shape or form, he is well-connected, he belongs to the favored group in Windhelm, there is no valid reason, none whatsoever, for him to do what he does at the Gray Quarter.

Yeah, that's true. Except that his city is under constant threat from an Imperial attack and there isn't a single Dunmer who's put the tiniest bit of effort into helping the defence. It's definitely not good enough reason to do the crap that he does. But he isn't doing it for a laugh. I know he's hard to listen to, but if you listen to him, he does have his reasons. Poor reasons, but reasons none the less.

Wonderful, so you would've supported the Japanese American Internment camps in WWII ?

Also, as Mr. Self-Destruct said, what kind of spy intends to provide information to The Legion while risking having his cover blown away by bringing his god damn armor, as well as a giant banner of The Empire ?

No, they shouldn't have been forced to work in internment camps. They should have had the opportunity to help the American war effort on their terms.

I'm glad you bring this up though. Since the Americans were terribly racist towards the Japanese during WWII, does this mean that the Japanese were actually the right side in the war, and the bad guys were actually the Americans? Because one of the main arguments against the Stormcloaks is that they're racist.

And Ambarys may not be a spy but he's clearly an Imperial supporter. If he's allowed to get away with it but no-one can get away with vocally supporting the Stormcloaks without being executed (Roggvir) or hauled away by the Thalmor (Thorald Grey-Mane), then what does that say about the so-called tolerance and fairness of the Empire?

For starters, one thing is unrelated to the other, the Grey Quarter should be turned into a nice part of town out of simple institutional duty and moral decency, period, no other considerations should be called upon in this matter, the dunmer and the argonians live in Windhelm, and their living standards should be just as good as those of the nords, end of discussion.

Now, about how they should handle imperial spies (of which there's no proof of any of those being in Windhelm), exile is as decent a choice as you can get in pre-medieval times, but before any fingers are pointed, proof must exist, and now it's just as empty as Ulfric's head.

Fair enough. I have said that the Dunmer should be allowed the same opportunities as the Nords, and Ulfric is making a mistake not allowing them these opportunities, as he's missing out on some valuable allies.

But there's proof of at least the Cornerclub at least being sympathetic towards the empire. I'd say it's things like this that make Ulfric less than keen about improving the Grey Quarter.

If by "fooled" you mean "saving the lives of countless of people in a war that could've ended with Tamriel ripped apart", then you are absolutely correct.

So The Stormcloaks have a better chance ? I'd be interested to know how that would happen without support from High Rock and Cyrodiil as well as a complete loss of imperial supply lines which were crucial to Skyrim's economy.

"At least they're standing up to them", as any madman would be about thinking he could fly by jumping from a rooftop.

How exactly is Tamriel not been torn apart? Hammerfell was just given to the Dominion. I wonder how many Redguards died there? Then of course there's Skyrim which has literally been torn in two, with countless deaths on each side. This is also a direct result of the WGC.

Okay, maybe the Stormcloaks don't have much of a chance against the entire Dominion, but the Empire definitely doesn't. If they couldn't defend themselves against them back in 171 when they had Hammerfell on their side, how are they going to win now they don't have the Redguards on side and with half of Skyrim not exactly willing to help either? At least the Stormcloaks aren't giving away any intelligence to the Thalmor, unlike the Empire where they seem to be everywhere at every important event, from the peace talks to Ulfric's execution.

First, this is one of the core arguments for why The Stormcloaks are simply wrong. The Empire made the call to prevent continuing a war that would've utterly ravaged Tamriel, that could've allowed The Thalmor to completely win over all the land.

So, in the face of such odds, what did Emperor Mede do ? He decided to gather his strength and allow The Empire, and it's provinces to regain their strength by the time The Thalmor would find an excuse to invade them again.

The price ? The religious freedom to worship one of the greatest heroes of Tamriel.

Anyone who doesn't think that was a fair trade considering all the circumstances should inmediately request "Mental Gymnastics" to be inducted as a valid sport in the next olympics.

Second, this is not true.


These are PRECISELY the times where prejudice should be cast aside friend, where races should unite and fight together, as one, for a common goal, there's no better rallying cry at the moment than saying "United, against The Dominion!".

But no, The Stormcloaks can't be happy with having one enemy in sight, everyone, even friends, family and neighbors, must have their blood spilled as well.



Those are THEIR soldiers, plenty of them are NORD soldiers that abide by the laws of the empire they belong to, before the WGC, they were as free as any independent nation could've possibly get, hell they still are now, albeit without OPENLY being able to share their beliefs.



The Empire Post-WGC is not what the Thalmor would do if they controlled Skyrim, you think the Thalmor would allow them to even have their own jarls ? You think the price to join The Dominion is simply going to be loyalty and a fair share of soldiers ? Hell, I just heard a theory a few days ago that said that The Thalmor are being used as tools for Mehrunes Dagon's return to Tamriel.

Not being able to scream "I LOVE TALOOOOOOS !" in public is not as bad as some people are making it out to be, specially considering the other option is a war no one, except The Stormcloaks, want.

You're calling the White-Gold Concordant a fair trade? Here's what I understand is involved in the "trade". The Blades were disbanded. Hammerfell was given up to the Thalmor. And the religion that is central to the empire and imperial culture was banned. And all the Empire gets out of it is that the Imperial City won't be destroyed for the time being. That's not a peace treaty, that's a surrender. When Titus Mede signed this thing, he had to be aware of what exactly this would do to the empire. Surely he could've gotten a better deal out of this. I guess he just didn't care, as long as Cyrodiil was fine.

And you know that Hammerfell were able to fight off the Thalmor by themselves. If they were able to do this, then surely the Empire would have an even better chance. Surely after the Stros M'Kai treaty was signed, when the Thalmor were shown to be not as strong as previously thought, would have been a great chance to rip up the concordant and take the fight to the Thalmor again.

See, it's not just about Talos. Ulfric and Galmar have said time and time again, that this empire is not the same one that they fought for. That they were sold out by the Empire when the treaty was signed, and then sold out a second time with the Markarth incident. That the Thalmor are allowed to go around and torture innocent civilians. That the empire seems to be bending over backwards to the Thalmor but fighting with all their might against the Stormcloaks. If they turned that aggression against the Thalmor, then Ulfric and co. would certainly fight at their side, and there'd be a good chance of defeating them.

 

[Docta Corvina]

There's SO much I'd really like to reply to, alas I am at work at the moment and on break. So I'll have to do this all piecemeal.

One thing I'd really like to know is how exactly the Empire is blowing their intelligence all over the place for the Thalmor to readily snatch up? If one is referring to the dignitaries' presences at high level talks and the would-be execution of Ulfric at the game's beginning, I find that an unfair attack. It seems expected to me that given the nature of the diplomatic situation the Empire is in with the Dominion, for them not to be allowed to be present would not only be burdensome on already tense relations, but could even possibly set even more deadly events in motion. The dignitaries being present does not in any way equate to Tullius or anyone else whispering sweet nothings in their Altmer ears about all of their plans. If anything, as Tullius himself says, the Imperials are very wary of the Thalmor and are only walking the current diplomatic tightrope because it's the nature of the status quo - one that the Empire plans to change when it's felt that the time is right. Neither the General nor anyone else I've run into likes the Thalmor. No one likes the Thalmor - except the Thalmor. And I find the notion of willing and enthusiastic Imperial collusion with them to be a troubling misconception.

As far as what happens in the future, post-war, it is interesting to think about. Personally, I think there is something to be said for the Stormcloak cause being a personality cult to some extent and the shelf life of something like that is difficult to gauge. I suppose what I'm thinking is that with Ulfric dead, how long would the people involved keep fighting on? And I suppose vice versa for the Empire-loyal Nords. That is an unknown variable in this grand equation. But the way I see things now, given past history and the trend of it all, the Empire is still Tamriel's best chance of repelling the Dominion.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

You're calling the White-Gold Concordant a fair trade? Here's what I understand is involved in the "trade". The Blades were disbanded. Hammerfell was given up to the Thalmor. And the religion that is central to the empire and imperial culture was banned. And all the Empire gets out of it is that the Imperial City won't be destroyed for the time being. That's not a peace treaty, that's a surrender. When Titus Mede signed this thing, he had to be aware of what exactly this would do to the empire. Surely he could've gotten a better deal out of this. I guess he just didn't care, as long as Cyrodiil was fine.

And you know that Hammerfell were able to fight off the Thalmor by themselves. If they were able to do this, then surely the Empire would have an even better chance. Surely after the Stros M'Kai treaty was signed, when the Thalmor were shown to be not as strong as previously thought, would have been a great chance to rip up the concordant and take the fight to the Thalmor again.

See, it's not just about Talos. Ulfric and Galmar have said time and time again, that this empire is not the same one that they fought for. That they were sold out by the Empire when the treaty was signed, and then sold out a second time with the Markarth incident. That the Thalmor are allowed to go around and torture innocent civilians. That the empire seems to be bending over backwards to the Thalmor but fighting with all their might against the Stormcloaks. If they turned that aggression against the Thalmor, then Ulfric and co. would certainly fight at their side, and there'd be a good chance of defeating them.

The Concordant wasn't a fair trade, I thought that much was clear.

And who said the Thalmor didn't lose against Hammerfell on purpose? Also, it's unknown just how strong the Dominion forces are. They could have just been as depleted as the Empire's forces. Making it an easy victory for Hammerfell.

The Empire would be able to take the fight back to the Thalmor much quicker if they didn't have to worry about a Civil War in Skyrim. If your buddy Ulfric didn't start this war, then the Empire could focus more on the Dominion. But, no. Ulfric wanted to be High King. He wanted that power and control.

And the Thalmor aren't carrying off that many as far as I can see. Do you forget the preacher in Whiterun who never shuts the hell up about Talos? Why isn't his ass getting carted away to get tortured? Maybe because everyone has a general hatred towards the Thalmor and don't want to rat out their neighbors.

 

[Raijin]

y'know he could just be saying that to get us to side with the legion. Which is another reason I am going to stay neutral in the war. Can't fully trust anyone or anything.

While I cant prove it by providing a lore or produce a video footage I firmly believe that Akatosh is well aware the destruction of the Empire. He knows that Mede is not the rightful candidate for the position of Emperor, that's why he did not choose him to be the Dragonborn. You as Dragonborn are chosen by Akatosh to not only defeat Alduin (his unruly first son) but to also help lead a new Empire back to the right direction, and help build up it's strength. Don't you find it ironic that the Dragonborn was born not only when Alduin came back, but also when the Empire was on the verge of collapsing?

My theory is that you were created to not only defeat Alduin but to restore the Empire, and to gain back the respect among the people... and that includes former Imperial legionnaires like Galmar and Ulfric stormcloak.

I know that this may sound very pro Empire coming from a Stormcloak supporter like myself, but that's the way I see it.

I don't hate the empire... however I strongly believe that Emperor Mede II is tearing the Empire apart... and that's why the gods sent down a replacement.

Just ask yourself this question and put your mind into the world of elders scrolls... Why were you chosen to be the Dragonborn?

 

[Jeremius]

While I cant prove it by providing a lore or produce a video footage I firmly believe that Akatosh is well aware the destruction of the Empire. He knows that Mede is not the rightful candidate for the position of Emperor, that's why he did not choose him to be the Dragonborn. You as Dragonborn are chosen by Akatosh to not only defeat Alduin (his unruly first son) but to also help lead a new Empire back to the right direction, and help build up it's strength. Don't you find it ironic that the Dragonborn was born not only when Alduin came back, but also when the Empire was on the verge of collapsing?

My theory is that you were created to not only defeat Alduin but to restore the Empire, and to gain back the respect among the people... and that includes former Imperial legionnaires like Galmar and Ulfric stormcloak.

I know that this may sound very pro Empire coming from a Stormcloak supporter like myself, but that's the way I see it.

I don't hate the empire... however I strongly believe that Emperor Mede II is tearing the Empire apart... and that's why the gods sent down a replacement.

Just ask yourself this question and put your mind into the world of elders scrolls... Why were you chosen to be the Dragonborn?

The only answer needed to that is to stop Alduin.

 

[Raijin]

The only answer needed to that is to stop Alduin.

And that's it?

 

[Jeremius]

And that's it?

Fankly, I do not care about the empire, OR the Stormcloaks. both can die because saving Tamriel is more important that saving an empire that is bound to crumble anyways.

 

[Raijin]

Fankly, I do not care about the empire, OR the Stormcloaks. both can die because saving Tamriel is more important that saving an empire that is bound to crumble anyways.

No offense but you sound like a pro Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion when you say something like that. Perhaps you might want to tell us something that's been secretly hid away from the rest of the world? Both the empire and the Stormcloaks are equally important. The most challenging aspects is to try to convince both parties to get a long so they can both focus on the incoming war against the Dominion.

Don't be ashamed of it because is in your right to like the Thalmor

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

The Thalmor is indeed strong, and they know it too. They believe that they should be the rightful rulers of Tamriel. I refuse to believe that the Empire have no knowledge of what the Thalmor is trying to do, It's just bad intelligence. The empire is quite known, base in the game, to have imperial spies working inside the enemy territory. Thats how they discovered the Jagged Crown. In the game theirs 1 High elf thats an imperial legion ranked as far as being a Legate if the imperials gains control over Riften.
The question is... why wasn't the Empire ready for this attack?Why weren't they 1 step ahead of the Thalmor? Perhaps if they had better intelligence then they would've been better prepared for this war.

It's good to see that you're willing to agree here. It's no secret the Empire hates the Thalmor as much as the Stormcloaks do, and I wouldn't be surprised if secret intelligence rings existed. (The Blades come to mind, a force fighting against the Thalmor.)

The Empire knew it was coming the moment Mede rejected the ultimatum, however, even cautious and methodical planning would do little to stave the surprise attacks which were sprung from Valenwood and Elsewyr. The war was no surprise as tensions had begun to mount the moment the Thalmor secured a foothold in Valenwood. Two militaristic forces that close to each other; and it'd only take a spark to ignite the keg.

It's nice to see that Mede can fight in battles alongside his men, but the fact to the matter is it didn't solve nothing but a treaty that he had to signed. The only way that Mede win back any territory against the Thalmor is after he signed the treaty.

Perhaps part of the reason he agreed to the treaty is because he was actually fighting with his men, seeing the conditions they were going through and experiencing the devastation brought on by war first-hand. Trying to call the Emperor weak is pointless when you take into account that he actually fought; emphasizing the severity of the conflict and how dire things were.

By signing the treaty created the Stormcloaks. Remember the Stormcloaks are pro Talos. Don't you remember what Galmar and Ulfric said to Rikke at Battle for solitude? If you forgot then let me refresh your memory.

No, it set forth a chain of events which lead to the creation of the Stormcloaks. You wouldn't credit Steve Job's mother for creating Apple as she merely set forth the chain of events. The Stormcloaks were formed during the Markarth Incident, where Ulfric was arrested by Igmund. True, these events would've never happened had the Empire won the war. However they didn't.

Igmund is a dishonorable man who gives false promises just so that he can rule the reach again. If what the book “Bear of markarth” is true, then Igmund is in fact a terrorist. It's the Empires fault for not disciplining Igmund for his ruthless actions.

Exactly what ruthless actions? If anything, the Empire would want Igmund to take Markarth back as there'd be an independent nation state smack dab in the middle of the Empire had he not.

In the eyes of the Empire Ulfric is considered Osama bin laden and his army is al-Qaeda. What was Igmund doing communicating with an enemy of the empire anyways?

Prior toward the Markath Incident, Ulfric was just another jarl who hardly raised a sidebar.

Ulfric said it himself that it wasn't his shout that killed him... it was his sword that pierced through his heart.

I'm going to take Torygg's word over his, namely because in Sovngarde Torygg doesn't have to worry about honor or reputation while Ulfric still has a war to fight, and admitting that he shouted Torygg apart would be quite unpopular.

I agreed to almost all but 4. We don't know for sure what Igmund had instructed Ulfric to do. Perhabs he was desperate enough to take the city back, and had told Ulfric "take the reach back at all cost" or something similar. I don't think we will ever find out either what actually happen when Ulfric and Igmund met up to discuss business.

Guessing and assuming are pointless here, and falling back on "well, there's no proof he didn't tell him to" is a logical fallacy. Disregarding the fact that even if he told Ulfric to kill the innocents, Ulfric would still be a murdering brute for following through,

I'm not saying that Ulfric is completely innocent. Igmund is largely at fault for brining destruction to the reach for the sake of him regaining power. At what cost? Innocent travelers getting murdered, mine owners getting murdered and their mines getting taken over by the forsworn, kidnappings, animosity,etc. Igmund created a war against the Reachmen. Like the empire created the Stormcloaks Igmund created the Forsworn.

My final argument here is that both of them have blood on their hands, and both of them are at the wrong end of the moral compass.

You can't just buy a set of an Imperial armor from any vendor. To obtain the specific armor (Imperial/Stormcloak/Dark brotherhood/Thieves guild ) you must be affiliated with an organization. This man has something up his sleeves to have an officers armor with shield. No the Stormcloaks don't treat his people bad it's the local nords.

Have you ever considered that maybe the armor is an heirloom or gift? Or that it was scavenged?

Rolff: "You come here where you're not wanted, you eat our food, you pollute our city with your stink and you refuse to help the Stormcloaks." (A good valid point. Perhaps if they help out then maybe they would be treated with more respect)

So telling someone they pollute their city with their filth and stink is a good argument? Furthermore when was the last time you saw anyone other than a Nord in Stormcloak ranks? (Disregarding non-canon gameplay mechanics which allow the player to join.) And also, after everything that's happened to them; why would the Dunmer want to help those that oppress them?

Suvaris: "But we haven't taken a side because it's not our fight." (What does she meant by “We” does she have a turd in her pocket or what? If it's not their war to fight then why are their dark elves joining the legion for the sake of the nords treating them like dirt? )

Ambarys (Or whatever his name is) isn't a confirmed Legionary, and only possesses a set of armor. Furthermore notice how Suvaris presents herself, she's calm, collected and keeps away from insults. Secondly by "we" of course she can't be speaking for the entirety of her people, she's simply observing that most of the Dunmer are neutral and are staying away from the war.

Angrenor: "Hey, maybe the reason these gray-skins don't help in the war is because they're Imperial spies!" (Another valid point. They refuse to help the stormcloaks yet they don't mind joining the legion)

So they're spies because they argue back when they're called polluting filth?

Rolff: "Maybe we'll pay you a visit tonight, little spy. We got ways of finding out what you really are."(Make sure you visit Ambarys Rendars house tonight.)

]

So condoning the forced search and interrogations of minorities on the basis "we think they're spies" is acceptable?

Hes a damn good candidate for the cause of the unrest in the Grey Quarters. Ulfric is too busy trying to regain back Skyrim from a broken down Empire that surrendered to the elves. Theirs nothing major going on in the Grey quarters other than an ungrateful bunch of immigrants that demands a lot.

So a single Dunmer is oppressing his people and keeping them in poverty because he owns a set of Imperial armor? You're blind assertions and accusations are akin to a child stumbling in the dark. You claim the Dunmer are "needy" and "ungrateful" when they aren't even given a chance to work and coexist. Trying to deny the blatant racism going on is outrageous when you take into account Argonians aren't even allowed into the city and the Dunmer are segregated.

Every argument you've brought up thus far brings to mind the stereotypical "negro 'hatin" hicks from films set in the appropriate time era. "They're ungrateful" "They don't help us" "They can't be trusted" yadda-yadda. Denying the fact that in places like Cyrodiil and even Riften where they're given equal opportunities they flourish as any other race can.

I believe that the civil war has a bit more leverage over then the dark elves in the Grey quarters. The Dark elves simply cannot wait their turn, and so they turn into children and give temper tantrums.

>Disregard how Ulfric assigns his butler to deal with Nord murders, but doesn't bother when the Dunmer are threatened. Like Susanna the Wicked was contributing to the Stormcloak at all.

What?????

You pretty much said "The Dunmer deserve their treatment because eras ago in Morrowind they were slavers." So do I deserve such treatment because my European heritage involves slavery?

Can you explain why that clip makes fun of people like myself? I must be missing something here.

As if an episode about stereotypical hicks telling Mexicans to "git out" isn't making fun of xenophobic Americans who are afraid of foreigners and outside influences. Kind of parrallel to our current situation, don't you think?

 

[azali100]

The Thalmor is indeed strong, and they know it too. They believe that they should be the rightful rulers of Tamriel. I refuse to believe that the Empire have no knowledge of what the Thalmor is trying to do, It's just bad intelligence. The empire is quite known, base in the game, to have imperial spies working inside the enemy territory. Thats how they discovered the Jagged Crown. In the game theirs 1 High elf thats an imperial legion ranked as far as being a Legate if the imperials gains control over Riften.
The question is... why wasn't the Empire ready for this attack?Why weren't they 1 step ahead of the Thalmor? Perhaps if they had better intelligence then they would've been better prepared for this war.

They did have spies in Dominion territory. But are you aware of the story of how the war began? It wasn't the ultimatum alone that caused it. When the Thalmor came to the Emperor to deliver their ultimatum, they brought with them a covered wagon. The Thalmor demanded the Emperor ban Talos worship and disband the Blades. After he refused, the elven ambassador removed the cover from the wagon revealing what was underneath. From the cart spilled over a hundred severed heads. The heads of every Blade spy in Sommerset Isles and Valenwood. They were hunted down, captured and executed. That is what caused the Emperor to declare war. That, is why there was no intelligence.


Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[theoperation]

The Concordant wasn't a fair trade, I thought that much was clear.

And who said the Thalmor didn't lose against Hammerfell on purpose? Also, it's unknown just how strong the Dominion forces are. They could have just been as depleted as the Empire's forces. Making it an easy victory for Hammerfell.

The Empire would be able to take the fight back to the Thalmor much quicker if they didn't have to worry about a Civil War in Skyrim. If your buddy Ulfric didn't start this war, then the Empire could focus more on the Dominion. But, no. Ulfric wanted to be High King. He wanted that power and control.

And the Thalmor aren't carrying off that many as far as I can see. Do you forget the preacher in Whiterun who never shuts the hell up about Talos? Why isn't his ass getting carted away to get tortured? Maybe because everyone has a general hatred towards the Thalmor and don't want to rat out their neighbors.

It's bizarre to lose a war on purpose. All I can think of the reason they lost on purpose was to bait the empire into an attack. But it's far more likely that the Thalmor were at least as depleted as the Empire. This goes to show that Mede was foolish to sign a treaty that was designed to tear apart the empire. Mede's no fool so I'm sure he knew that was exactly what was going to happen, so I think his motivation was simply to save Cyrodiil there and then, and then deal with the problems such as a possible rebellion in Skyrim later.

Fair enough I say, but the game is called Skyrim, not Cyrodiil. Sure, you can role-play as someone from Cyrodiil and then go ahead and join the Imperials, which is something I actually did through my Breton character. But the best choice for Skyrim and the Nords who inhabit it are definitely the Stormcloaks.

And if anyone started the war it was Jarl Igmund. After promising free rule of Talos just to get his land back from the Forsworn, a promise he must have known he couldn't have kept what with all the Thalmor around the place. So Ulfric was forced to escape back to Windhelm where he was made Jarl, and then the Stormcloaks were founded, yada yada. The point is that if Igmund wasn't so power hungry and racist (yes, racist), then perhaps this war wouldn't have happened.

Well maybe my game is bugged, but everytime I'm travelling between cities and towns in Imperial controlled territory, there is a group of Thalmor Justicars. Half the time they have a prisoner, the other half they're alone, but I'm presuming they're on their way to capture one. And I bet if that preacher ever decided to leave Whiterun he'd be captured too. The Thalmor don't seem to get people if they're in the city walls, but as soon as they're outside then they're off. I swear I see more Thalmor than dragons in my game.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

It's bizarre to lose a war on purpose. All I can think of the reason they lost on purpose was to bait the empire into an attack. But it's far more likely that the Thalmor were at least as depleted as the Empire. This goes to show that Mede was foolish to sign a treaty that was designed to tear apart the empire. Mede's no fool so I'm sure he knew that was exactly what was going to happen, so I think his motivation was simply to save Cyrodiil there and then, and then deal with the problems such as a possible rebellion in Skyrim later.

Fair enough I say, but the game is called Skyrim, not Cyrodiil. Sure, you can role-play as someone from Cyrodiil and then go ahead and join the Imperials, which is something I actually did through my Breton character. But the best choice for Skyrim and the Nords who inhabit it are definitely the Stormcloaks.

And if anyone started the war it was Jarl Igmund. After promising free rule of Talos just to get his land back from the Forsworn, a promise he must have known he couldn't have kept what with all the Thalmor around the place. So Ulfric was forced to escape back to Windhelm where he was made Jarl, and then the Stormcloaks were founded, yada yada. The point is that if Igmund wasn't so power hungry and racist (yes, racist), then perhaps this war wouldn't have happened.

Well maybe my game is bugged, but everytime I'm travelling between cities and towns in Imperial controlled territory, there is a group of Thalmor Justicars. Half the time they have a prisoner, the other half they're alone, but I'm presuming they're on their way to capture one. And I bet if that preacher ever decided to leave Whiterun he'd be captured too. The Thalmor don't seem to get people if they're in the city walls, but as soon as they're outside then they're off. I swear I see more Thalmor than dragons in my game.

Mede being foolish is your opinion. There's no possible way that you know how bad the damage was to Cyrodiil and the Imperial City. Speak to some of the NPCs that actually moved from Cyrodiil to Skyrim. Hell, Cicero is one of them. Cyrodiil is in shambles. That's not how you win a war.

Just listen to yourself. The best thing for Skyrim and the NORDS are the Stormcloaks. Wow. So what about the other races that call Skyrim home? They need to GTFO? This is my whole issue with the Stormcloak way of thinking. Skyrim isn't just where the Nords live (and granted they weren't the first race to call Skyrim home). And this is why I support the Empire. The Empire wants all the races to work together to overcome the Dominion menace that is threatening all of Tamerial. However, the Empire can't get their focus back towards the Dominion until the Civil War is taken care of. Which leads to...

And it's Ulfric's fault the war started. He had the Stormclaoks founded awhile before the Civil War began, but needed a major event to really show people what he's capable of willing to do to get what he wants. Which was challenging the High King and killing him. That is what brought the Empire and the Thalmor into Skyrim. End of.

 

[theoperation]

Mede being foolish is your opinion. There's no possible way that you know how bad the damage was to Cyrodiil and the Imperial City. Speak to some of the NPCs that actually moved from Cyrodiil to Skyrim. Hell, Cicero is one of them. Cyrodiil is in shambles. That's not how you win a war.

Just listen to yourself. The best thing for Skyrim and the NORDS are the Stormcloaks. Wow. So what about the other races that call Skyrim home? They need to GTFO? This is my whole issue with the Stormcloak way of thinking. Skyrim isn't just where the Nords live (and granted they weren't the first race to call Skyrim home). And this is why I support the Empire. The Empire wants all the races to work together to overcome the Dominion menace that is threatening all of Tamerial. However, the Empire can't get their focus back towards the Dominion until the Civil War is taken care of. Which leads to...

And it's Ulfric's fault the war started. He had the Stormclaoks founded awhile before the Civil War began, but needed a major event to really show people what he's capable of willing to do to get what he wants. Which was challenging the High King and killing him. That is what brought the Empire and the Thalmor into Skyrim. End of.

Okay then, not foolish, but perhaps he was only really concerned for the fate of Cyrodiil. That's fair enough, he did what was necessary to save Cyrodiil. But again I repeat, if you're a Nord of Skyrim whose under threat of an Imperial attack on one hand and living in fear of being carted away by the Thalmor on the other, then why should they be going "well at least Cyrodiil's fine, go Empire!"

The other races that call Skyrim home won't be negatively affected by the Stormcloaks. What makes you think this? I haven't heard any evidence of a Stormcloak policy of racial segregation. I haven't heard anything racist come out of Ulfric Stormcloak's mouth, any Stormcloak soldiers or even Galmar's mouth. The only real racism I see is from Rolff Stone-Fist and that other guy who harasses the Dunmer whose name I forgot. And before you say "They say damn elves all the time", they mean the Thalmor, not all elves.

And before you say "Windhelm has the Dunmer and Argonians living in poverty", well it was like that when they arrived almost 200 years ago before the Stormcloaks were ever founded. Where is there any evidence that the Dunmer lived well until Ulfric came into power? It was like that well before he came into power.

And again, the Markarth incident started the war. The challenging of the High King was just an event that made the Empire take Ulfric more seriously, because they just weren't being listened to. But it all started with Jarl Igmund. That's what brought the Thalmor to Skyrim, and that's what gave Ulfric and every Talos-worshipping Nord a reason to fight back. And did I mentioned that he also turned the Forsworn from decent folk into murdering savages? Worst. Jarl. Ever.

 

[Flint firestorm]

And again, the Markarth incident started the war. The challenging of the High King was just an event that made the Empire take Ulfric more seriously, because they just weren't being listened to. But it all started with Jarl Igmund. That's what brought the Thalmor to Skyrim, and that's what gave Ulfric and every Talos-worshipping Nord a reason to fight back. And did I mentioned that he also turned the Forsworn from decent folk into murdering savages? Worst. Jarl. Ever.

It was the murder of the high king, not the maerkarth incident that started the war. If they were at war then why would thorygg let him in to see him? Also the worst jarl ever is by far skald the elder, the only person in his hold who actually supports the storm clocks

 

[theoperation]

If you don't believe me that the war started with the Markarth Incedent,

Markarth Incident - The Elder Scrolls Wiki

Clearly states that the betrayal against Ulfric led him to found the Stormcloaks.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

If you don't believe me that the war started with the Markarth Incedent,

Markarth Incident - The Elder Scrolls Wiki

Clearly states that the betrayal against Ulfric led him to found the Stormcloaks.

And? Him starting the Stormcloak cause doesn't equate to the Civil War beginning. As I've said, the Civil War didn't begin until the Empire was brought into Skyrim. Why were they brought into Skyrim? To deal with the rebellion and it's leader. The leader that killed the High King.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Blaming Igmund for the civil war just seems roundly bizarre to me. I agree that Ulfric used the indignation arising from the "betrayal" as a way to rally followers who would eventually become the Stormcloaks, by official name. But I hardly think Ulfric's ambition sprang up overnight, as a result of Igmund's ill-decided brokerage. And that ambition stands as his tragic blinding mechanism.

To assume that it's all Igmund's responsibility basically requires us to say, well, if it hadn't been for Igmund being a meanie-meanie two-face back in the day, Ulfric would have had no reason at all to go to war with the Empire. I would even go so far as to speculate that the Concordat's signing was already a deal-breaker with Ulfric as far as the Empire was concerned and if the agreement with Igmund had been a non-entity, that moment would have officially hatched the Stormcloaks. And, while the deal they arranged is itself questionable to me, as far as being ethical, this all still just ignores what I personally believe we are shown of Ulfric's character. I'm not in his head and don't claim to know every thought, but I base my opinions and deductions on his actions, his own words, and what the lore has to offer in the way of history and insight. As I've said before, he's a Great War veteran with a bone to pick - maybe more than one bone. But I just don't believe that if the Markarth Incident hadn't happened, that Ulfric would not have found an opportunity to garner himself followers after the Concordat's signing, or even prior to it depending. He comes off as egomaniacal to me, and I've pointed to reasons for that throughout this thread and others. He thrives on political calculation.

It seems to me that given Ulfric's encounters with the Thalmor, he should well have known that what he's doing is only playing into their hands, at the end of the day. I won't fault him for being angry at the situation. Let's face it, no one is happy with it except the Thalmor. But I will fault him for doing what I think puts the entirety of Tamriel in graver, further danger and doing so with perhaps some patriotic but most certainly opportunistic and vain motivations.