Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[feliciano182]

But just because they are not directly responsible, does not mean the whole messes are not their fault, as Mr.Self Destruct was saying.

But it is like he says.

Imagine if Ulfric came into Markarth, shouted the forsworn away............and then just left, we wouldn't be saying anything at all about Igmund. Same goes for Tullius, imagine if Ulfric had simply been sent to Cyrodiil, or if The Dragonborn got a pardon right there, nobody would be blaming anyone in regards to anything.

You know what? This whole war is Thalmor Indoctrination, so I can feel bad for the deaths of any innocent folk killed in the war, but won't shed a tear for the soldiers that die.

This little comment means the opposite of what you think it means friend, soldiers are people too.

 

[Jeremius]

But it is like he says.

Imagine if Ulfric came into Markarth, shouted the forsworn away............and then just left, we wouldn't be saying anything at all about Igmund. Same goes for Tullius, imagine if Ulfric had simply been sent to Cyrodiil, or if The Dragonborn got a pardon right there, nobody would be blaming anyone in regards to anything.




This little comment means the opposite of what you think it means friend, soldiers are people too.

I think it means that if a person who is killed during the war while they are not actually in the war, I feel bad, if it is a soldier, TB-too bad, that is supposed to happen in war, soldiers die, end of story.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

so, if I told someone to do this thing over here, and promised them something, then they killed ten innocents to do that job I gave them, I do not have to feel guilty for those deaths because I was not directly responsible? That makes no sense to me.

So is Tulius' mother responsible for giving birth to him? Is Ulfric responsible for getting arrested at the time? No, that's the angle you're trying to argue here. Igmund is partially responsible as he chose Ulfric to do the job and lied to him to get the work done. Meanwhile, the captain happens to be under Tulius' command along with every other troop in Skyrim. It's not Tulius' fault she slipped up, it's her own.

 

[Jeremius]

So is Tulius' mother responsible for giving birth to him? Is Ulfric responsible for getting arrested at the time? No, that's the angle you're trying to argue here. Igmund is partially responsible as he chose Ulfric to do the job and lied to him to get the work done. Meanwhile, the captain happens to be under Tulius' command along with every other troop in Skyrim. It's not Tulius' fault she slipped up, it's her own.

The point is, that their actions, or the inaction of others (Hadvar), put those situations into place. Let's face it, IF a soldier has to listen to a captain and not be able to tell the GENERAL about something he thinks is wrong, then it is the entire legion's fault.

 

[feliciano182]

The point is, that their actions, or the inaction of others (Hadvar), put those situations into place. Let's face it, IF a soldier has to listen to a captain and not be able to tell the GENERAL about something he thinks is wrong, then it is the entire legion's fault.

Sheogorath................is that you ?

 

[Jeremius]

Sheogorath................is that you ?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Now, go slay some dragons before I tear out your intestines, and jump rope with them...

 

[azali100]

The point is, that their actions, or the inaction of others (Hadvar), put those situations into place. Let's face it, IF a soldier has to listen to a captain and not be able to tell the GENERAL about something he thinks is wrong, then it is the entire legion's fault.

That literally makes no sense at all. The whole leigon's fault? What kind of screwed up logic did you go through to come to that conclusion?

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[Jeremius]

That literally makes no sense at all. The whole leigon's fault? What kind of screwed up logic did you go through to come to that conclusion?

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Just the fact that the chain of command is so strict, that soldiers cannot go over their direct superior's head. Plus, Hadvar did not actually protest, he asked the captain what they should do, she said to kill our character, her dropped the subject.

 

[azali100]

Just the fact that the chain of command is so strict, that soldiers cannot go over their direct superior's head. Plus, Hadvar did not actually protest, he asked the captain what they should do, she said to kill our character, her dropped the subject.

Of course the chain of command is tight this a Roman style military. And you can't disobey your CO so Hadvar had to drop it. That doesn't mean you can blame the entire legion for your sentence.

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[Jeremius]

Of course the chain of command is tight this a Roman style military. And you can't disobey your CO so Hadvar had to drop it. That doesn't mean you can blame the entire legion for your sentence.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

He could have mentioned that our character might be innocent and it would be murder to kill us.

 

[theoperation]

I forgot to reply to this earlier, oops.

Friend, IT'S STILL RACISM, you are still discriminating people on grounds that apply only to an incredibly minor few, do you really believe that every single Khajiit that exists in Tamriel carries skooma ? If you don't, then why the hell do you think it's a rational policy to enforce discrimination on them ?

Don't give me that crap about how every single NPC you meet has skooma, every NPC you meet of a Khajiit in Skyrim is either a caravaneer or a mercenary, that doesn't mean that suddenly all the other Khajiit, the citizens, the normal common folk, cease to exist from the in-universe reality of The Elder Scrolls.

Why is it crap that saying every NPC Khajiit having Skooma when they actually do? I can imagine that the writers put them in there to show that a lot of Khajiit use Skooma. I never said they were dealers though. And they're more resistant to it, it's almost like mead to them, so it's not a big deal that they drink skooma.

But the governments of each hold would rather not have to deal with a Skooma problem, so they don't allow Khajiit into the city. It's not an effective or fair solution, but it's one that no-one apart from Ysolda would complain about, as most men and elves see the Khajiit as little more than beasts. Governments have always gone for the popular decision even if it doesn't work rather than controversial one. If a city would let the Khajiit in it'd be great, but it's unrealistic.

Conjecture, beliefs, suppositions =/= Proof.

Again, what are the facts ?

A) The nords pay slave wages to argonians and dunmer.

B) They limit working opportunities to both groups.

C) They dictate that both groups should live in determined places which are unfit for residence.

Fine, but can you think of any other reason why they're seperate? The Nords just decided to seperate them for a laugh?

I clearly said that I don't find Ambarys' attitude to be ok, however, it's perfectly understandable when he's on the losing side, him and his people are being treated like fourth-class citizens, being paid slave wages, having little to no oportunities, being ignored by guards and by the jarl, and to top it all of, getting harassed by a jobless imbecile who can do whatever he wants because he's the brother of a general.

Yes friend, to a certain extent, Ambarys' attitude is perfectly justifiable.

I think Ambarys' attitude is understandable. It's clear to everyone how the Dunmer of Windhelm have to live, and it's clear that every Nord apart from that beggar chick has it better than them. On the same hand, Rolff's attitude is also understandable. But neither attitude is justifiable.

So you think it's okay that people should be forced to colaborate on a war they don't believe in ? Do you have any idea how what you're saying actually clashes with your views on the policies The Thalmor are enforcing on Skyrim ?

Oh no, it's definitely not ok to be forced to collab in a war you don't agree with. Considering I'm almost always against war, then yeah, you shouldn't have to. But if Australia came under attack from an enemy nation, then I'd too get suspicious at any people who weren't doing everything they could to help. Especially if they were people who had something to gain from a regime change. So I maintain that they are lucky they're not being forced to help, and that Rolff's suspicions of being Imperial spies are grounded, even if his racism isn't.

So if I said that the majority of this forum is white, male, and around the ages of 16-25, then I must be a genius !


No friend, that's not how it works, Rolff made an accusation based on his prejudiced, racist beliefs, to clarify, he was wrong, the dunmer, the whole sub-culture of dunmer in Windhelm are NOT spies, there's only one PROBABLE instance of two dunmer being "spies" of the empire, because for all we know, Ambarys could be an imperial veteran, or maybe he's waiting until the legion storms Windhelm (Ha!) so he can dress in imperial armor and join the fight.

Or hell, maybe he's actually a spy ? And to you I ask, why the hell would a poor, mistreated dunmer spy for The Empire ? I'm pretty sure you're going to do some mental gymnastics and tell me it's because he's an evil racist traitor.

I don't actually agree with Roggvir's execution, it is clear that it was done to deliver a message about where the people of Solitude should stand on this war, from a pragmatic point of view it had a purpose, but my judgements are not simply pragmatical, and thus, I do not agree with that execution. However, when it comes to the question "Who's right in the Civil War" ? The answer will be The Empire every damn time, because despite all the mistakes it has committed, it's simply the best choice for everyone.

I inadvertently responded to the top paragraph just then. Kind of. I agree that the Dunmer have every reason to help the empire, as they would benefit from regime change. But does that mean the Stormcloaks should go "well that's great, you go and help the empire, we'll leave you alone. And while we're at it, we'll turn the Grey quarter into a nice part of town." No, if there were any evidence that anyone in Windhelm was helping the Empire, they'd be exiled at best, executed at worst. Apart from the dragonborn, who is mysteriously allowed to run around the Palace of the Kings wearing imperial armour while Laila and Skald the Elder slag him off.

And when it comes to the question about who's right in the civil war, it'd be the Stormcloaks everytime. The empire was fooled into signing the White-Gold Concordant, which is less of a peace treaty and more of a surrender to the Dominion. And even if the Stormcloaks have less of a chance of defeating the Dominion (for what it's worth, I think they've got a better chance), at least they're standing up against them.

[/quote]I swear bro, between you and Raijin I could make a thesis on rationalization in videogames.

First, it's racist friend, specially when there's consistent evidence everywhere, nobody here is simply complaining about the variations of the phrase "Damn Elves", an inmense amount of nords don't simply complain about The Thalmor, they complain about the elves, and about the "beast races" that have "invaded" Skyrim, the policies of nord traditionalists favor the nords every single damn time, whereas they don't do so with everyone else that isn't a nord, as Brunwulf Free-Winter clearly explains; neither Ulfric nor Galmar are interested in the hardships of those who are not "true nords", whereas The Empire openly accepts everyone, and fairly recognizes equal citizen status of ALL RACES (for fu**'s sake, even giants!) sure, we have the Khajit issue, but what you guys like to ignore, is that places like Solitude and Markarth are still ruled by nords, they may be backed by The Empire, but last time I checked, neither Elisif nor Igmund were imperials, and under the rule of The Empire, Skyrim is still a nation capable of making it's own decisions and exacting their own justice as they see fit.

Second, saying that being ruled by The Empire post-WGC is the same as being ruled by the Thalmor is completely being full of it, and I shouldn't even have to explain why, but I know I'll have to after your post.[/quote]

As of the time of the game, there's a civil war going on, the worship of their god is banned and being enforced by the Thalmor, their traditional culture and way of life is being eroded, and the Oblivion crisis is still fresh in their mind. Then of course there's dragons 'n plops. To put it mildly it's uncertain times. With all this going on, don't you think you're expecting a bit much for the Nords to suddenly turn all liberal and accept all people regardless of being elven or human and share what little resources around with people they don't know they can trust?

And if Skyrim is a nation capable of making it's own decision and exacting their own justice as they see fit, then why are their Imperial soldiers running around everywhere? It's not an independent nation, it's a province.

And the empire-post WGC is exactly like what would happen if the Thalmor controlled Skyrim. The Thalmor and Thalmor toadies would have all the money (which they do, such as Maven Black-Briar and Erikur), the cities most loyal to the Thalmor would be the richest (Solitude) and the ones least loyal would be the poorest (Windhelm). The Nords would be "allowed" to rule their own hold, but only if they tow the Thalmor line. Any who go against would be branded as traitors as be hunted down, just like Ulfric is. And of course there's the Justicars. Maybe my game is bugged, but when travelling the roads of Skyrim there is ALWAYS a group of Thalmor Justicars who either want to slit my throat or have a prisoner. That's exactly what it would be like if they ruled.

 

[Flint firestorm]

People always give out about the empire agreeing to the WGC but they had no choice. As it says on the the wiki:The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war.
And on one of the loading screens: Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War.
Anyway the empire who signed the WGC is dead, for all we know the next emperor could be Alexander the great kind of guy.... Or a hitler kind of guy. Also I feel that many people don't give the Mede's enough credit, especially since the first Mede emperor stop a floating city and a undead army, and the second managed to save the empire against all odds.

 

[Jeremius]

People always give out about the empire agreeing to the WGC but they had no choice. As it says on the the wiki:The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war.
And on one of the loading screens: Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War.
Anyway the empire who signed the WGC is dead, for all we know the next emperor could be Alexander the great kind of guy.... Or a hitler kind of guy. Also I feel that many people don't give the Mede's enough credit, especially since the first Mede emperor stop a floating city and a undead army, and the second managed to save the empire against all odds.

Just because they had to sign the WGC does not mean everyone has to go "Oh, we want peace at any cost, that was the right choice." Everyone has the right to their opinion, and some think that the empire signing the WGC was the wrong choice.

 

[Flint firestorm]

Just because they had to sign the WGC does not mean everyone has to go "Oh, we want peace at any cost, that was the right choice." Everyone has the right to their opinion, and some think that the empire signing the WGC was the wrong choice.

Yes but it is the game developers and creators who decided what goes in the game and they decided to say that the WGC saved the empire.

 

[Jeremius]

Yes but it is the game developers and creators who decided what goes in the game and they decided to say that the WGC saved the empire.

you do know that the WGC and the Empire signing it is one of the reasons for the Civil war, right?

 

[feliciano182]

Just the fact that the chain of command is so strict, that soldiers cannot go over their direct superior's head. Plus, Hadvar did not actually protest, he asked the captain what they should do, she said to kill our character, her dropped the subject.

Friend, you are describing the military as it is, and has always been..............everywhere.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

so, if I told someone to do this thing over here, and promised them something, then they killed ten innocents to do that job I gave them, I do not have to feel guilty for those deaths because I was not directly responsible? That makes no sense to me.

No, because you didn't instruct them to kill anybody and anyone who randomly snaps in the middle of a favor and kills ten people is both volatile and insane. Furthermore this analogy is also rendered false when you take into account Tulius probably didn't appoint the captain personally. Are you responsible if you tell your friend to drive to the store and he gets in a car crash? Absolutely not.

 

[Flint firestorm]

you do know that the WGC and the Empire signing it is one of the reasons for the Civil war, right?

I was referring to saving the empire from the Thalmar, as it say on the loading screen.

 

[feliciano182]

Why is it crap that saying every NPC Khajiit having Skooma when they actually do?

Because it's a matter of gameplay design that does not correlate with the actual workings of the in-game universe, every Khajiit you see in Skyrim is either a traveling merchant, smuggler, mercenary, thief, or a variation of the former. This does not mean that every single Khajit in Tamriel, is either a drug dealer or a drug user, even so, making this assumption on the few ones you've seen accross Skyrim is, apart from ludicrous, a prejudiced generalization.

I can imagine that the writers put them in there to show that a lot of Khajiit use Skooma. I never said they were dealers though. And they're more resistant to it, it's almost like mead to them, so it's not a big deal that they drink skooma.

Even if all of this was true, which I don't believe it is, how exactly are these rational measures solving the skooma problem ? Do you think it's logical to prevent the entry of all panamenean citizens into the US on the grounds that they will flood the country with cocaine ?

But the governments of each hold would rather not have to deal with a Skooma problem, so they don't allow Khajiit into the city. It's not an effective or fair solution, but it's one that no-one apart from Ysolda would complain about, as most men and elves see the Khajiit as little more than beasts. Governments have always gone for the popular decision even if it doesn't work rather than controversial one. If a city would let the Khajiit in it'd be great, but it's unrealistic.

I can't believe I'm reading this.

I hate to be offensive here friend, you've been very polite and educated in this discussion, but you're either a young man (or woman) with incompletely formed thoughts on important matters like prejudice and discrimination, or you're a racist.

Fine, but can you think of any other reason why they're seperate? The Nords just decided to seperate them for a laugh?

It starts with the letter "R" and it ends in "acism".

I think Ambarys' attitude is understandable. It's clear to everyone how the Dunmer of Windhelm have to live, and it's clear that every Nord apart from that beggar chick has it better than them. On the same hand, Rolff's attitude is also understandable. But neither attitude is justifiable.

Rolff's attitude is precisely the one which is not understandable, he is not being discriminated against in any shape or form, he is well-connected, he belongs to the favored group in Windhelm, there is no valid reason, none whatsoever, for him to do what he does at the Gray Quarter.

But if Australia came under attack from an enemy nation, then I'd too get suspicious at any people who weren't doing everything they could to help. Especially if they were people who had something to gain from a regime change. So I maintain that they are lucky they're not being forced to help, and that Rolff's suspicions of being Imperial spies are grounded, even if his racism isn't.

Wonderful, so you would've supported the Japanese American Internment camps in WWII ?

Also, as Mr. Self-Destruct said, what kind of spy intends to provide information to The Legion while risking having his cover blown away by bringing his god damn armor, as well as a giant banner of The Empire ?

But does that mean the Stormcloaks should go "well that's great, you go and help the empire, we'll leave you alone. And while we're at it, we'll turn the Grey quarter into a nice part of town." No, if there were any evidence that anyone in Windhelm was helping the Empire, they'd be exiled at best, executed at worst. Apart from the dragonborn, who is mysteriously allowed to run around the Palace of the Kings wearing imperial armour while Laila and Skald the Elder slag him off.

For starters, one thing is unrelated to the other, the Grey Quarter should be turned into a nice part of town out of simple institutional duty and moral decency, period, no other considerations should be called upon in this matter, the dunmer and the argonians live in Windhelm, and their living standards should be just as good as those of the nords, end of discussion.

Now, about how they should handle imperial spies (of which there's no proof of any of those being in Windhelm), exile is as decent a choice as you can get in pre-medieval times, but before any fingers are pointed, proof must exist, and now it's just as empty as Ulfric's head.

And when it comes to the question about who's right in the civil war, it'd be the Stormcloaks everytime. The empire was fooled into signing the White-Gold Concordant, which is less of a peace treaty and more of a surrender to the Dominion. And even if the Stormcloaks have less of a chance of defeating the Dominion (for what it's worth, I think they've got a better chance), at least they're standing up against them.

If by "fooled" you mean "saving the lives of countless of people in a war that could've ended with Tamriel ripped apart", then you are absolutely correct.

So The Stormcloaks have a better chance ? I'd be interested to know how that would happen without support from High Rock and Cyrodiil as well as a complete loss of imperial supply lines which were crucial to Skyrim's economy.

"At least they're standing up to them", as any madman would be about thinking he could fly by jumping from a rooftop.

As of the time of the game, there's a civil war going on, the worship of their god is banned and being enforced by the Thalmor, their traditional culture and way of life is being eroded, and the Oblivion crisis is still fresh in their mind.

First, this is one of the core arguments for why The Stormcloaks are simply wrong. The Empire made the call to prevent continuing a war that would've utterly ravaged Tamriel, that could've allowed The Thalmor to completely win over all the land.

So, in the face of such odds, what did Emperor Mede do ? He decided to gather his strength and allow The Empire, and it's provinces to regain their strength by the time The Thalmor would find an excuse to invade them again.

The price ? The religious freedom to worship one of the greatest heroes of Tamriel.

Anyone who doesn't think that was a fair trade considering all the circumstances should inmediately request "Mental Gymnastics" to be inducted as a valid sport in the next olympics.

Second, this is not true.

Then of course there's dragons 'n pl***. To put it mildly it's uncertain times. With all this going on, don't you think you're expecting a bit much for the Nords to suddenly turn all liberal and accept all people regardless of being elven or human and share what little resources around with people they don't know they can trust?

These are PRECISELY the times where prejudice should be cast aside friend, where races should unite and fight together, as one, for a common goal, there's no better rallying cry at the moment than saying "United, against The Dominion!".

But no, The Stormcloaks can't be happy with having one enemy in sight, everyone, even friends, family and neighbors, must have their blood spilled as well.

And if Skyrim is a nation capable of making it's own decision and exacting their own justice as they see fit, then why are their Imperial soldiers running around everywhere? It's not an independent nation, it's a province.

Those are THEIR soldiers, plenty of them are NORD soldiers that abide by the laws of the empire they belong to, before the WGC, they were as free as any independent nation could've possibly get, hell they still are now, albeit without OPENLY being able to share their beliefs.

And the empire-post WGC is exactly like what would happen if the Thalmor controlled Skyrim. The Thalmor and Thalmor toadies would have all the money (which they do, such as Maven Black-Briar and Erikur), the cities most loyal to the Thalmor would be the richest (Solitude) and the ones least loyal would be the poorest (Windhelm). The Nords would be "allowed" to rule their own hold, but only if they tow the Thalmor line. Any who go against would be branded as traitors as be hunted down, just like Ulfric is. And of course there's the Justicars. Maybe my game is bugged, but when travelling the roads of Skyrim there is ALWAYS a group of Thalmor Justicars who either want to slit my throat or have a prisoner. That's exactly what it would be like if they ruled.

The Empire Post-WGC is not what the Thalmor would do if they controlled Skyrim, you think the Thalmor would allow them to even have their own jarls ? You think the price to join The Dominion is simply going to be loyalty and a fair share of soldiers ? Hell, I just heard a theory a few days ago that said that The Thalmor are being used as tools for Mehrunes Dagon's return to Tamriel.

Not being able to scream "I LOVE TALOOOOOOS !" in public is not as bad as some people are making it out to be, specially considering the other option is a war no one, except The Stormcloaks, want.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire signed the Peace Treaty after they had crushed the Thalmor army in Cryodiil. They didn't simply surrender and give up, they defeated the Thalmor Army in their home land, but people dislike them for signing it and giving up. The Empire had less than half strength it's capital in ruins, they couldn't march out towards Summerset Isles. The red guards fought off the Thalmor and people give them credit...They fought off the Thalmor in their own land... well so did the Empire? Should they be hated because THEY didn't march towards Summerset Isles? they got their own peace treaty with the Thalmor same as the Empire.

What the Emperor did was smart, he wasn't going to invade the Summerset Isles because he did not have the man power, he had less than half his Military, he knew he could not win if he marched out, he'd have left Cyrodiil in ruins, Bandits would have sacked Villages because all the armed guards are out marching towards the Summerset Isles. Only an idiot would march towards the Thalmor.

He'd need ships, he'd have to secure all the other provinces, Hammerfell, Valenwood, Elsweyr, Morrowind and Black Marsh. Now doing that with a Military that has lost over half its men... they'd lose more men taking the other provinces back, he'd need to keep soldiers in cities to maintain order, along roads, secure supplies. Then when all that is done, probably losing heaps of soldiers doing all this, He'd be able to sail towards the summerset isles with probably not even a full legion. Well that would be a great plan, lets go finish off the Thalmor with a splinter force, who knows we may get lucky.