Ysgramor, Hero or Murderous Savage?

[Rimfaxe96]

No offense to the elves but in this case I'm absolutely for Ysgramor.

What triggered the Night of Tears cannot be said. Facts we have is that the Saarthal ruins are structured way down to this Eye of Magnus, and that the elves heard of this and either wanted the power for themselves or feared the humans might use it against them or do other bad stuff with it, would be one option. Another possibility would be that when humans reproduced "too fast", fear was that they might threaten the elves' culture or - as I assume, since Gelebor said that his people always had "an uneasy alliance" with the humans - their territory. Look at Saarthal's location, you can't grow crops there. And the Forgotten Vale and other Snow-Elf locations are even further east, not much plant-friendly weather there either. Who knows, maybe the rivalries between both sides started with simple fights over hunting territory as food source. Somewhere it was mentioned that similar to 4th Era Altmer their opinions about humans weren't about equality, so at some point that too could have played its part.

Either way, with Saarthal attacked, burned to the ground and (almost*) every inhabitant killed along with other human settlements destroyed, it should be quite clear that the elves had enough of humanity and intended to use this genocide to be rid of them once and for all.
Therefore I don't mind Ysgramor having similar little mercy for them in return when burning them alive, taking captives as long as their bodies would survive to do some work (in one of the books of the series "Songs of the Return" it's hinted that for example not all of the Snow Elf captives had their tongues anymore), keeping them as slaves to build new homes (Windhelm for example) and who knows what else. It literally broke the last of the elves' resistance and watching their relatives being brutally killed, chased down by bulky Atmorans or friends dying from exhaustion when building yet another wall must be horror beyond measure. (I wonder what happened to the elves which survived all this in the end? Were they killed off to ensure they can't take revenge?)

And while terror isn't something I usually like to support, it's these Nords which helped the Imperials get rid of the Ayleid, who were even worse;

Slaves were utilized by the Ayleids for a variety of purposes, including agricultural work, entertainment, and the building and maintenance of their empire's infrastructure. According to legend, the Ayleids literally turned cruelty into an art form, and Ayleids across Cyrodiil derived strange pleasures from "art-tortures". Various Ayleidic settlements became famous for their particular, elaborate method of torturing their slaves, such as "wailing wheels", "gut gardens", "flesh-sculptures", and forced ingestion of hallucinogenic drugs, as well as nighttime "tiger sport", which involved the immolation of human children.

So yeah, I bet at some point this "Men vs Mer" thought is aiding my opinion deep in the back of my mind, but I rather see elves cut down instead of humans tortured and then cut down afterwards.

He did that and snow elves and men never went to war again

Yeah, because there were no elves left that could go to war against men.

The Snow Elves are extinct. The only thing left in their place is Gelebor. The Falmer will never be was they once were. Even if they grow to intelligence again, they'll never be able to be what they once were. What they were is effectively extinct unless there is a massive supply of Snow elves hidden somewhere on Nirn.

To be honest, I'm almost certain that there are still some Snow Elves hiding out somewhere. We mustn't think of Skyrim like this easily-run-through map like we have in the game. Rather think of it as a landscape that is hard to get through per road, and pretty much impossible cross-country. And if there aren't forests filled with wolves or worse, then we have mountains that cannot be climbed upon. In other words, Skyrim is an icy fortress in itself with plenty of hideouts. Trouble is that the player can't search "forgotten" places like the Forgotten Vale, which were once inhabited by Snow Elves. Maybe the survivors are descendants of the ones that lived during the war against the Atmorans, and when fighting for survival knowledge tends to be forgotten or just not passed on to the next generation.
Too bad Gelebor can't draw you a few more locations on your map...

 

[Thorn]

I may be the only one...but I could see a conspiracy perhaps regarding the Night of Tears and Saarthal. It certainly gave the Nords or rather the Nedes the pretext to wage a full war of conquest against the Snow Elves.

Highly, doubtful. Are you suggesting, the Atmorans arranged the systematic murder of thousands of their innocent people, just to give themselves justification to wage war on the Snow Elves?
View attachment 9222

I am just suggesting that perhaps they let the attack happen when they could have perhaps stopped it, or there was an inside person helping the Elves as one of the theories is that they knew the layout of the city extremely well. Or perhaps the attack occurred for the same reason that the Psijics come to the College.

 

[Ivory]

The Snow Elves are extinct. The only thing left in their place is Gelebor. The Falmer will never be was they once were. Even if they grow to intelligence again, they'll never be able to be what they once were. What they were is effectively extinct unless there is a massive supply of Snow elves hidden somewhere on Nirn.

To be honest, I'm almost certain that there are still some Snow Elves hiding out somewhere. We mustn't think of Skyrim like this easily-run-through map like we have in the game. Rather think of it as a landscape that is hard to get through per road, and pretty much impossible cross-country. And if there aren't forests filled with wolves or worse, then we have mountains that cannot be climbed upon. In other words, Skyrim is an icy fortress in itself with plenty of hideouts. Trouble is that the player can't search "forgotten" places like the Forgotten Vale, which were once inhabited by Snow Elves. Maybe the survivors are descendants of the ones that lived during the against the Atmorans, and when fighting for survival knowledge tends to be forgotten or just not passed on to the next generation.
Too bad Gelebor can't draw you a few more locations on your map...

I honestly love to believe this, I always have. However I have to consider it as a head cannon. Though it astounds me how many Nordic burial mounds and how many Nordic barrows there are, yet the closest thing we can find of the lost race is the Forgotten Vale. Skyrim is a majestic place. It makes me wonder how much of the land has truly been forgotten without the power of the Snow Elven magics.

I may be the only one...but I could see a conspiracy perhaps regarding the Night of Tears and Saarthal. It certainly gave the Nords or rather the Nedes the pretext to wage a full war of conquest against the Snow Elves.

Highly, doubtful. Are you suggesting, the Atmorans arranged the systematic murder of thousands of their innocent people, just to give themselves justification to wage war on the Snow Elves?
View attachment 9222

I am just suggesting that perhaps they let the attack happen when they could have perhaps stopped it, or there was an inside person helping the Elves as one of the theories is that they knew the layout of the city extremely well. Or perhaps the attack occurred for the same reason that the Psijics come to the College.

This is actually an interesting concept. Who knows, maybe not the atmorans, but another influence may have caused something. While all assumption and unsupported ideas. You never know. Maybe even Daedric perhaps. Let's try not to dwell too far on this though!

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I honestly love to believe this, I always have. However I have to consider it as a head cannon. Though it astounds me how many Nordic burial mounds and how many Nordic barrows there are, yet the closest thing we can find of the lost race is the Forgotten Vale. Skyrim is a majestic place. It makes me wonder how much of the land has truly been forgotten without the power of the Snow Elven magics.

Before the Dawnguard DLC was released the image of a single surviving Snow Elf would have been described as head cannon too. And then people tried to shoot Gelebor with arrows until they found out the arrows were just going through him without damage and when you come closer that possible enemy suddenly turns to you and tells you that you have nothing to fear.
So yeah, unless a race gets cursed by Daedra or messes around with Lorkhan's stuff, I doubt they can become extinct in a world that's hardly been discovered.

I just wish we could ask Gelebor more about the Night of Tears and the Return, how he experienced them. Or what his opinions of humans is in case you're playing as Nord. But nope, of course we get nothing... damn you Bugthesda. Maybe someday they'll make deeper characters and show them off like Naughty Dog... ><

 

[High King of Skyrim]

I may be the only one...but I could see a conspiracy perhaps regarding the Night of Tears and Saarthal. It certainly gave the Nords or rather the Nedes the pretext to wage a full war of conquest against the Snow Elves.

Highly, doubtful. Are you suggesting, the Atmorans arranged the systematic murder of thousands of their innocent people, just to give themselves justification to wage war on the Snow Elves?
View attachment 9222

I am just suggesting that perhaps they let the attack happen when they could have perhaps stopped it, or there was an inside person helping the Elves as one of the theories is that they knew the layout of the city extremely well. Or perhaps the attack occurred for the same reason that the Psijics come to the College.

If this was the case, it would no doubt have been alluded to in some form of lore or another. Saarthal, is part of the history of the Nords, it effectively shaped who they are as a people. It was the catalyst for the first war which saw man pitted against elf. While reasons for the elve's treachery may never truly be known what does keep popping up is the Eye Of Magnus issue. It's inferred in game that this is the reason and cited in what limited lore is available on the subject, so I'd highly doubt the Atmorans let this happen. Don't forget, Ysgramor and his two sons were not supposed to make it out, their prowess in combat and their cunning saved their lives. Your theory however, is an interesting one. I just don't think it would have been necessary given the Atmorans were the superior fighters and therefor wouldn't need all the drama just to have justfication to conquer Merith. If what you say is true then why not just land on Merith as a conquer as the Akaviri did long after?

Thorn said : or there was an inside person helping the Elves as one of the theories is that they knew the layout of the city extremely well.

Possible, though it's more likely they knew the layout from a Snow Elf insider living inside the city. It's my understanding elves lived in Saathal too.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Rimfaxe96 said: To be honest, I'm almost certain that there are still some Snow Elves hiding out somewhere. We mustn't think of Skyrim like this easily-run-through map like we have in the game. Rather think of it as a landscape that is hard to get through per road, and pretty much impossible cross-country. And if there aren't forests filled with wolves or worse, then we have mountains that cannot be climbed upon. In other words, Skyrim is an icy fortress in itself with plenty of hideouts. Trouble is that the player can't search "forgotten" places like the Forgotten Vale, which were once inhabited by Snow Elves. Maybe the survivors are descendants of the ones that lived during the against the Atmorans, and when fighting for survival knowledge tends to be forgotten or just not passed on to the next generation.
Too bad Gelebor can't draw you a few more locations on your map...

I'd have to agree. The Dawnguard DLC shows us two living Snow Elves. If they survived, it is only logical to assume that somewhere in Skyrim, there may be more survivors.

 

[Ivory]

I honestly love to believe this, I always have. However I have to consider it as a head cannon. Though it astounds me how many Nordic burial mounds and how many Nordic barrows there are, yet the closest thing we can find of the lost race is the Forgotten Vale. Skyrim is a majestic place. It makes me wonder how much of the land has truly been forgotten without the power of the Snow Elven magics.

Before the Dawnguard DLC was released the image of a single surviving Snow Elf would have been described as head cannon too. And then people tried to shoot Gelebor with arrows until they found out the arrows were just going through him without damage and when you come closer that possible enemy suddenly turns to you and tells you that you have nothing to fear.
So yeah, unless a race gets cursed by Daedra or messes around with Lorkhan's stuff, I doubt they can become extinct in a world that's hardly been discovered.

I just wish we could ask Gelebor more about the Night of Tears and the Return, how he experienced them. Or what his opinions of humans is in case you're playing as Nord. But nope, of course we get nothing... damn you Bugthesda. Maybe someday they'll make deeper characters and show them off like Naughty Dog... ><

That was kinda my point. We can only assume and hope. The dwemer are exctint to my knowledge no? I believe there was one alive during the time of Morrowind, but I am unsure.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

That was kinda my point. We can only assume and hope. The dwemer are exctint to my knowledge no? I believe there was one alive during the time of Morrowind, but I am unsure.

Yeah, the Dwemer are that one exception when saying "one survivor means more survivors" because they messed with Lorkhan.
The only Dwemer left was Yagrum Bagarn because he was visiting a different dimension, must have been quite a shock to return and then see everyone's gone. Considering that being in a different dimension saved him and he was able to travel there, there might somewhere in existence be a few Dwemer left. Maybe they are all just fine, just... somewhere else.

I guess it's beyond our imagination what a once-Divine can do to a populace on a whim. Unless the storymakers of Bethesda make something up, but Lorkhan's Heart is pretty much bound to Mundus, kind of the source of mortality... who knows what it can do.