Racial racism?

[Crooksin]

I don't believe that for one second because i've seen numerous other scenarios where black people on videogames, sitcoms, web shows and movies were being so overly obvious with there racism that it was like watching a hate speech and not one person so much as even questioned if it was racist. In actuality if the roles were reversed and redguards were in the role of nords and vice versa not only would everybody be on the side of redguards but anyone against them would be labeled a racist. Welcome to the harsh reality of "stupid people"

It all stems down to what Drunkenmage explained a couple posts up, its not black and white in fantasy, its species and species. Saying there is a racial double standard in Skyrim because you seen tongue-in-cheek racism in a Tyler Perry show isn't quite the same at all. That seems more of in the realm of "stupid people". I know what you are saying though with the racist double standard, I see it too, don't worry, and if we were talking about non-white racism in TV or movies I'd be on your side. This is Tamriel though, pl***s played out differently. If you want to apply real world standards to Skyrim, then sure, but I would say its far from the real world, don't you think?

Dude i'm well aware that its a fantasy world within a videogame but i was using that as an example to explain why yarl ulfric is considered a racist, if he were a redguard character everybody would be too afraid to call him a racist for obvious reasons. I knew before posting the comment that nobody was going to agree and anyone who did agree was not going to be brave enough to admit it, but thats reality and i don't believe in telling people what they wanna hear i believe in giving them facts and letting the chips fall where they may. And i'm going to bow out of this conversation now because in my forum experience topics like this one never end well. lol

I'd like to point out my first post in this thread .... lol

 

[DrunkenMage]

I don't believe that for one second because i've seen numerous other scenarios where black people on videogames, sitcoms, web shows and movies were being so overly obvious with there racism that it was like watching a hate speech and not one person so much as even questioned if it was racist. In actuality if the roles were reversed and redguards were in the role of nords and vice versa not only would everybody be on the side of redguards but anyone against them would be labeled a racist. Welcome to the harsh reality of "stupid people"

It all stems down to what Drunkenmage explained a couple posts up, its not black and white in fantasy, its species and species. Saying there is a racial double standard in Skyrim because you seen tongue-in-cheek racism in a Tyler Perry show isn't quite the same at all. That seems more of in the realm of "stupid people". I know what you are saying though with the racist double standard, I see it too, don't worry, and if we were talking about non-white racism in TV or movies I'd be on your side. This is Tamriel though, pl***s played out differently. If you want to apply real world standards to Skyrim, then sure, but I would say its far from the real world, don't you think?

Dude i'm well aware that its a fantasy world within a videogame but i was using that as an example to explain why yarl ulfric is considered a racist, if he were a redguard character everybody would be too afraid to call him a racist for obvious reasons. I knew before posting the comment that nobody was going to agree and anyone who did agree was not going to be brave enough to admit it, but thats reality and i don't believe in telling people what they wanna hear i believe in giving them facts and letting the chips fall where they may. And i'm going to bow out of this conversation now because in my forum experience topics like this one never end well. lol

People have no problem calling the Imperial Captain in Helgen racist. Which she is, no one seems to be afraid of it.

She look Nord white to you?

 

[BigBad]

Man, I really can't believe no one's linked to that Avenue Q song yet.

On topic: Yeah, Ulfric is a bit of a bigot, though more tacit than active, as in not so much persecuting other races out of malice and more keeping them out of his hair and turning a blind eye to his people's actions while he concentrates on his grand rebellion. He'll let non-Nords join the Stormcloaks, after all, so he's got time for other races if they're helping his war effort. If not, well, they can stay outside until he's got the time and inclination to deal with them*. Galmar, now, is the really racist one. Every other sentence is about how much elves suck. Which they do, but he can get sort of broken record about it. But even taking all that into account, Ulfric is still racist. He's very much a jingoistic personality, and actively supports that "Skyrim for the Nords!" attitude in his private army.

*It's been pointed out that the segregation of the Dunmer and Argonians may actually lend them some protection from the many extremely racist and often malicious Nords in Windhelm, since the civil war doesn't allow Ulfric the manpower to police his hold as well as he should. This doesn't make racial segregation and enforced poverty okay, though.

Much as I dislike Ulfric, I don't think the Khajiit should count against him there. After all, every single jarl in Skyrim treats them the same way, up to and including Balgruuf, whose hold is pretty cosmopolitan, and whoever the Jarl is in Riften, the city already teeming with thieves and shady types.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

BigBad said: Much as I dislike Ulfric, I don't think the Khajiit should count against him there. After all, every single jarl in Skyrim treats them the same way, up to and including Balgruuf, whose hold is pretty cosmopolitan, and whoever the Jarl is in Riften, the city already teeming with thieves and shady types.

I'd have to agree. Whether warranted or not the Khajiit have a notorious reputation in Skyrim for being shifty and most Khajiit you come across in game, prove to be just that.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Hard to say, really, because as of now, Skyrim isn't in its normal state, it's war. Bloody war, after a much bigger and bloodier war.
And seeing how the Dark Elves don't want to get into the fight against the Dominion or the Empire but still remain in the cities living peaceful lives on Nord homeland while the Nords fall like flies... well sorry but, I can't blame them for holding grudges.
On the other hand, it's not really as if the Dunmer had much of a choice. With half of Morrowind devastated, where else would they go if not the neighbour country? Hence why they are mostly in Windhelm, it's close to Morrowind's border.
But I guess they really don't like the Argonians or don't regard them as equal beings. Or they keep them out because they know the relationships Dunmer and Lizards had in the past and just want both sides to stay calm, wouldn't want to waste men guarding their Quarter to keep things down while they could also help on the battlefield now, would we?
At least that one Dunmer chick (forgot her name ><) sounded pretty aggressive when saying that they "should get their tails moving".

Or if your rich, you should be able to buy your way in.

Well you can do that in Rifton the first time you go there.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I believe the Khajiit issue is for Khajiit Caravans not being allowed inside the city walls, nothing directly about khajiit by themselves. Since most Khajiit NPC's belong to the caravans or bandits it could be why there is no other khajiit inside the walls. Though I seem to remember a Khajiit assassin working for the Thalmor trying to kill me in Riften's market. So if all Khajiit are banned from city walls, how would one get inside to be standing in the market square.

Just my general take on that situation.

 

[Dagmar]

No, he's not, if the nords on this game were black people nobody would have ever made this assumption nor would they have started this foolish "ulfric is a racist" fanclub. It amazes me sometimes how incredibly stupid and hypocritical people can be.

So in your world if someone who is actually a racist wouldn't be considered racist by some if the roles were reversed that magically makes him not racist?

Here are the simple facts:

1. Windhelm has had government imposed segregation of the Dunmer regarding where they are allowed to reside for at least two generations and probably longer. This can be easily verified through conversation with several NPC's starting with one of the first ones you can question, Alfarinn, the Windhelm carriage driver;

2. The government of Windhelm is the Jarl of Eastmarch. The Jarl and the Jarl alone determines what the laws of his Hold and settlements are. He can create and repeal laws with the wave of pen. A simple edict repealing the segregation policy on the Dunmer would end the residential apartheid of the Dunmer while the refusal to do so is indicative of a desire to keep the policy in place;

3. Ulfric is the Jarl of Eastmarch. His refusal to repeal the segregation laws against the Dunmer can only be explained by a belief in the validity of the racial segregation.

Last time I checked no rational being has ever claimed that the enforcement of racial segregation isn't a racist act. The only ones who maintain a stance like that are other racists. It's completely irrelevant that Ulfric is a Nord and the Dunmer aren't. If Ulfric was a Dunmer and it was Nords being segregated to the Gray Quarter it wouldn't make it any less racist regardless of what some people might like to believe. That's a total failure in logic.

 

[Bira96]

Ulfrick is a fine leader... for Nords. Every other race would be doomed if he were High King. Why do you think that the Argonians are confined to the docks and the Dunmer are confined to the Grey Quarter? In fact, most Nords are pretty racist (not all) the Khajiiti aren't even allowed in cities.

And yet, when you play an Argo or a Khajit, they treat you just like everyone else (other than calling you a Lizard or threatening to make a carpet out of you). Make RP a little difficult.

It is very lore breaking, I believe that Bethesda backed itself into a corner. They should've made you earn the cities respect by doing misc. missions for them and when you earned enough of the cities respect they would let you in. Or if your rich, you should be able to buy your way in. They couldn't really do this either, because it would discourage people from playing as a Khajiiti or Argonian. Bethesda should've thought twice about the anti Argonian and Khajiiti approach.

Ignoring the flame war going on to respond to this;
I agree with you about Bethesda not making it more difficult for argonians and khajiit just for the sake of the lore, since it would just annoy the gamers at the end of the day. And besides, I think that partly of what you said IS true; I always play as a Khajiit, and never in my entire Skyrim career (yes, I just referred to gaming as a career, deal with it) have chosen any other race. I've noticed that at the beginning of the game the guards repeat racist and suggestive lines more often, like assuming you're going to pick their pocket or break into someone's shop or home, since Khajiiti have a bad reputation for being thieves. But, as I progressed through the Companions and main quest line, those words see less and less of the light of day, as guards start to express their awe, admiration, and respect for all of my heroic deeds and good service toward Skyrim.
Also, I think the developers have made their own opinion known in their own subtle way. No one ever confronted me about treachery or shame in the imperial side of the war, yet during the battle of Whiterun on the Stormcloak's side, the Jarl doesn't hold back how betrayed he feels by his once closely trusted friend and thane.

 

[Majir-Dar]

And yet, when you play an Argo or a Khajit, they treat you just like everyone else (other than calling you a Lizard or threatening to make a carpet out of you). Make RP a little difficult.

It is very lore breaking, I believe that Bethesda backed itself into a corner. They should've made you earn the cities respect by doing misc. missions for them and when you earned enough of the cities respect they would let you in. Or if your rich, you should be able to buy your way in. They couldn't really do this either, because it would discourage people from playing as a Khajiiti or Argonian. Bethesda should've thought twice about the anti Argonian and Khajiiti approach.

Ignoring the flame war going on to respond to this;
I agree with you about Bethesda not making it more difficult for argonians and khajiit just for the sake of the lore, since it would just annoy the gamers at the end of the day. And besides, I think that partly of what you said IS true; I always play as a Khajiit, and never in my entire Skyrim career (yes, I just referred to gaming as a career, deal with it) have chosen any other race. I've noticed that at the beginning of the game the guards repeat racist and suggestive lines more often, like assuming you're going to pick their pocket or break into someone's shop or home, since Khajiiti have a bad reputation for being thieves. But, as I progressed through the Companions and main quest line, those words see less and less of the light of day, as guards start to express their awe, admiration, and respect for all of my heroic deeds and good service toward Skyrim.
Also, I think the developers have made their own opinion known in their own subtle way. No one ever confronted me about treachery or shame in the imperial side of the war, yet during the battle of Whiterun on the Stormcloak's side, the Jarl doesn't hold back how betrayed he feels by his once closely trusted friend and thane.

You should note that the guards only respond to you being a thief if that's all you do. For instance if you only thieved for a long time, doing nothing else, than they'll will only talk about you being a thief. That would explain your thief/companion comment. That said, I can't tell if your trying to argue with me or just talk to me. This is a little awkward for me to say but can you try and clarify your intentions? I'm guessing your trying to say you disagree with me or you could just be expressing your opinion on... what the guards say to you?

 

[High King of Skyrim]

I believe the Khajiit issue is for Khajiit Caravans not being allowed inside the city walls, nothing directly about khajiit by themselves. Since most Khajiit NPC's belong to the caravans or bandits it could be why there is no other khajiit inside the walls. Though I seem to remember a Khajiit assassin working for the Thalmor trying to kill me in Riften's market. So if all Khajiit are banned from city walls, how would one get inside to be standing in the market square.

Just my general take on that situation.

The Khajiit in Riften's market, being a sleeper for the Thalmor, would no doubt have snuck into the city. Seems more likely than her asking the gate guards, "hey, I'm just going to zip in and assassinate two people, be back in a jiffy!".

 

[Dagmar]

The Khajiit in Riften's market, being a sleeper for the Thalmor, would no doubt have snuck into the city. Seems more likely than her asking the gate guards, "hey, I'm just going to zip in and assassinate two people, be back in a jiffy!".

That doesn't explain how she's able to move about in plain sight of the guards inside the city.

 

[Majir-Dar]

The Khajiit in Riften's market, being a sleeper for the Thalmor, would no doubt have snuck into the city. Seems more likely than her asking the gate guards, "hey, I'm just going to zip in and assassinate two people, be back in a jiffy!".

That doesn't explain how she's able to move about in plain sight of the guards inside the city.

If she's already inside the city than the guards could be to nervous to deal with her. For all they know, she's on official business or she's really important. They wouldn't know that she wasn't supposed to be inside unless one of the gate guards goes inside the city and reports her.

 

[BigBad]

You know, it's entirely possible that the Khajiit caravans -are- allowed in Riften, but choose to stay outside. Since Riften is lousy with thieves and rogues, the Khajiit merchants may want to stay outside the walls where they won't be used as scapegoats for the unscrupulous dealings in the city. It would explain why the Thalmor agent has no problems getting into the city.

 

[Majir-Dar]

You know, it's entirely possible that the Khajiit caravans -are- allowed in Riften, but choose to stay outside. Since Riften is lousy with thieves and rogues, the Khajiit merchants may want to stay outside the walls where they won't be used as scapegoats for the unscrupulous dealings in the city. It would explain why the Thalmor agent has no problems getting into the city.

Very doubtful. Khajiiti are unnaturally witty (most) but are also beings of pleasure. Their native homeland is a desert, if they could go inside a nice, warm inn, they would.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

The Khajiit in Riften's market, being a sleeper for the Thalmor, would no doubt have snuck into the city. Seems more likely than her asking the gate guards, "hey, I'm just going to zip in and assassinate two people, be back in a jiffy!".

That doesn't explain how she's able to move about in plain sight of the guards inside the city.

Ahhh, assassins are sneaky?? Perhaps it's a kamikaze style mission. I just can't think of any other Khajiit citizen walking around in a town in Skyrim, so I think it's reasonable then to assume the ban applies to more than just the caravans? Although, I'm far from sure. There is the Khajiit cook in the Thalmor embassy but I doubt that counts in the context of this discussion. Am I forgetting anyone??

 

[BigBad]

You know, it's entirely possible that the Khajiit caravans -are- allowed in Riften, but choose to stay outside. Since Riften is lousy with thieves and rogues, the Khajiit merchants may want to stay outside the walls where they won't be used as scapegoats for the unscrupulous dealings in the city. It would explain why the Thalmor agent has no problems getting into the city.

Very doubtful. Khajiiti are unnaturally witty (most) but are also beings of pleasure. Their native homeland is a desert, if they could go inside a nice, warm inn, they would.

Yeah, but would they go inside a nice, warm inn if it was a virtual certainty that something would get stolen or someone's pocket would get picked, and they'd get the blame? Not to mention, Riften hold is pretty temperate as far as climate goes. It's wet, but there's no snow on the ground off the mountains.

 

[Majir-Dar]

You know, it's entirely possible that the Khajiit caravans -are- allowed in Riften, but choose to stay outside. Since Riften is lousy with thieves and rogues, the Khajiit merchants may want to stay outside the walls where they won't be used as scapegoats for the unscrupulous dealings in the city. It would explain why the Thalmor agent has no problems getting into the city.

Very doubtful. Khajiiti are unnaturally witty (most) but are also beings of pleasure. Their native homeland is a desert, if they could go inside a nice, warm inn, they would.

Yeah, but would they go inside a nice, warm inn if it was a virtual certainty that something would get stolen or someone's pocket would get picked, and they'd get the blame? Not to mention, Riften hold is pretty temperate as far as climate goes. It's wet, but there's no snow on the ground off the mountains.

As far as climate goes, all of Skyrim is freezing for a Khajiit. Riften is also home to the Thieves Guild, there's a 50/50 chance that they would be blamed not the Khajiiti. You do raise a point that I overlooked though.

 

[BigBad]

I find it far less likely that the Thieves Guild would get blamed when it would probably be the Thieves Guild doing the blaming as a cover for their other activities. You know, the very first thing they want you to do when you want to join.

 

[The Dunmeri Rogue]

I find it far less likely that the Thieves Guild would get blamed when it would probably be the Thieves Guild doing the blaming as a cover for their other activities. You know, the very first thing they want you to do when you want to join.

Actually it's because Brand-Shei upset Maven.

 

[BigBad]

That specific case, yes. I'm just pointing out that frame jobs are a thing that the Thieves Guilds does. They're also smart enough to use scapegoats as a cover for their own activites, especially when those scapegoats are nomads with no local ties.