Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mr.Self Destruct]

High King Torygg was a traitor to Skyrim. He was addicted to Imperial coin (Like the rest of the Imperial supported Jarls) That's why Ulfric challenge him to a duel in the old Nordic traditions, and Torygg accepted. I give the man some props to face Ulfric, but the fact is if he couldn't defend himself against Ulfric how is he to defend all of Skyrim? He had no business being High King.

I like how the last time you tried this it ended with you neglected to reply. I've explained to you many times how your ability to kill or defend yourself from being killed hardly impacts your ability to lead as some of our greatest leaders (FDR, Ghandi, Churchill) were physically impaired while some of the most vicious rulers (Castro, Jackson) proved seemingly immune to death. Torygg was not addicted to Imperial coin and any notion of yours that he was is simply a baseless assertion. Torygg sympathized with Ulfric, yet the Stormcloaks needed him dead to clear the way for the crown.

Ulfric said that he shouted Torygg to the ground, but it was his blade that pierced through his heart.

No, he actually didn't and if you'd take the time to talk to Torygg in Sovngarde you'd know this isn't true.

Skyrim high king Toyrgg in sovngarde - YouTube (Video wouldn't embed.)

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Personally, I think that the death of the Emperor at the hands of either the DB or some other shadowy figure probably makes sense from the perspective of "good storytelling". Power vacuums have always been seized upon as precursors to momentous and sometimes terrible change. I have no doubt that the overall tenuous situation would serve as a perfect stage and climate for such an additionally destabilizing event to occur. It's symbolic as much as it is functional. The Empire ostensibly leaderless during a period of "cold war" with the Dominion would be a great catalyst for whatever Bethesda has in store in the way of upcoming game and lore content. In that way, I could theoretically see the Stormcloaks' victory being canonized in an effort to build upon the growing sense of peril for the (current) Empire. That said, I see no reason why even if that happened, that Beth couldn't offer a future installment that effectively sought to reforge and rebuild the Empire against many odds, in the interests of finally contending with the Thalmor. The curtain at some point will fall on the Mede Empire. Whoever follows is open to any and all possibilities - for better or for worse.

Yes, but what I'm saying is if Titus Mede II is assassinated there is no Empire, because there would be no Emperor. And if the Stormcloaks were to win it would be Ulfric as the High King and I can hardly see him being much of a great leader. With no Empire to hold back the Thalmor, Skyrim would be a prime target due to Ulfric insisting that they worship Talos in public. Since they just got out of a long and tedious war, I'd assume the Thalmor would have the upper advantage.

But of course Cyrodiil being in the weakened state that they are, I'd assume they would also take advantage of that too.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Docta What do you mean ceases to be fun? Maybe im slightly trolly but the orc started argueing against me even though we both are technically imperials. This thread is mostly to me a post booster because ideology of imaginary worlds can only resonate so much with me. Meh. We can all agree no matter which side we are on of certain truths (honestly still opinion but sue me). Torygg is dead, Ulfric Killed him, Tullius' master stroke was stopped by a dragon, Thalmor are pricks, Balgruuf is awesome, some Jarls suck on either side, and Dark Brotherhood forever. Lolz phone rants are fun.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

But of course Cyrodiil being in the weakened state that they are, I'd assume they would also take advantage of that too.

When you assume... also we dont know when canon wise when Titus gets assassinated if the Civil war is won or not. So assumtions are not valid like some opinions posted here ...

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

When you assume... also we dont know when canon wise when Titus gets assassinated if the Civil war is won or not. So assumtions are not valid like some opinions posted here ...

I don't see your point. Because it's not canon we can only assume.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Docta What do you mean ceases to be fun? Maybe im slightly trolly but the orc started argueing against me even though we both are technically imperials. This thread is mostly to me a post booster because ideology of imaginary worlds can only resonate so much with me. Meh. We can all agree no matter which side we are on of certain truths (honestly still opinion but sue me). Torygg is dead, Ulfric Killed him, Tullius' master stroke was stopped by a dragon, Thalmor are pricks, Balgruuf is awesome, some Jarls suck on either side, and Dark Brotherhood forever. Lolz phone rants are fun.

Hmm, some of the exchanges have come across to me as hostile and personal and really, it goes back further than the last few pages. It just seems like tensions have gotten higher this past week and I know it all comes and goes in waves, but it's a bit...odd to me. No one person or pair of debaters is at fault. We all have our views on everything in the game and they'll no doubt be different in various senses. I guess what I'm saying is that some of it has just seemed weirdly personal as of late. Like, the kind of stuff that makes one edgy about joining the discussion. Maybe that's partly why no one who's new really ever stays around to contribute much after freshly posting here. I just think that's unfortunate.

But that's just my observation. Take it with a grain of salt, or nothing at all.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

I don't see your point. Because it's not canon we can only assume.

Look maybe i am assuming. Maybe Bethesda with have the dark brotherhood destroyed instead of being brought back to strength. But having the Dark Brotherhood questline as canon, bear with me, Butt occured after tuluis won the Civil war. Because Tulius runs the military in Skyrim not Titus therefore Imperials could with the civil war,but due to the Thalmor prickness they decide to ally with Hammerfell High Rock and your Orsinium. This means the thalmor make the mistake most large military states make of pissing everyone else off that is a relatively resonable assumption. In some ways... just my opinion from my understanding. You will not find facts from the Civil War showing which side is right or wrong (cough* Imperials super dope*cough) because it is grey vs gray.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Yes, but what I'm saying is if Titus Mede II is assassinated there is no Empire, because there would be no Emperor. And if the Stormcloaks were to win it would be Ulfric as the High King and I can hardly see him being much of a great leader. With no Empire to hold back the Thalmor, Skyrim would be a prime target due to Ulfric insisting that they worship Talos in public. Since they just got out of a long and tedious war, I'd assume the Thalmor would have the upper advantage.

But of course Cyrodiil being in the weakened state that they are, I'd assume they would also take advantage of that too.

I don't necessarily agree that if Mede goes, the whole thing goes up in smoke. There is the Elder Council, which unless I'm mistaken, for all intents and purposes will run the machine if something happens to the Emperor himself. The governance would fall to those individuals, which could bode ill or well for the ship of state. It's just going to depend. If there are enough Amaund Motierre types in it, things could be really craptastic in the coming years. If not, things could be comparatively decent until a suitable leader steps in or is seen fit to be placed there.

As for Ulfric, I think that even many Stormcloak supporters would agree that the man is not beloved even among all of those who follow him. Many do it for what they see as strictly pragmatic reasons. If he were to become High King, I have no doubt that he'd be wearing a constant target on his back and in an even more interesting trick of fate (and lore), maybe he himself is assassinated and Skyrim sort of re-lives the chaos that erupted when Torygg was killed. That's one way to foster lasting hardship and infighting in a province. Speculation, of course. But I don't think anything's as cut and dry as it might seem.

 

[azali100]

High King Torygg was a traitor to Skyrim. He was addicted to Imperial coin (Like the rest of the Imperial supported Jarls) That's why Ulfric challenge him to a duel in the old Nordic traditions, and Torygg accepted. I give the man some props to face Ulfric, but the fact is if he couldn't defend himself against Ulfric how is he to defend all of Skyrim? He had no business being High King.

(For audio purposes only)

Ulfric said that he shouted Torygg to the ground, but it was his blade that pierced through his heart.

There is so much wrong here. You can't prove he was "addicted" to Imperial coin. And the fact that you attempt to compare the ability to win a fight, one on one, to the ability to lead a nation.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Look maybe i am assuming. Maybe Bethesda with have the dark brotherhood destroyed instead of being brought back to strength. But having the Dark Brotherhood questline as canon, bear with me, Butt occured after tuluis won the Civil war. Because Tulius runs the military in Skyrim not Titus therefore Imperials could with the civil war,but due to the Thalmor prickness they decide to ally with Hammerfell High Rock and your Orsinium. This means the thalmor make the mistake most large military states make of pissing everyone else off that is a relatively resonable assumption. In some ways... just my opinion from my understanding. You will not find facts from the Civil War showing which side is right or wrong (cough* Imperials super dope*cough) because it is grey vs gray.

The Imperial Legion serves the Empire, if there is no Empire they serve no one. Orsinium was destroyed 200 years ago after it was rebuilt, and High Rock is already an ally of the Empire. The Thalmor also have Elsywer, Valenwood, and the Summerset Isles right under Cyrodiil. All they need to do is conquer Cyrodiil and take on the rest of Tamriel. Skyrim is weakened by the war, Morrowind is in no condition to suddenly raise an army of of the blue and fight the Thalmor, I don't see any reason for the Argonians to care, and Hammerfell would be going against 4 provinces. Even if Titus Mede II is killed after the Civil war, this would still be the state of the situation.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I don't necessarily agree that if Mede goes, the whole thing goes up in smoke. There is the Elder Council, which unless I'm mistaken, for all intents and purposes will run the machine if something happens to the Emperor himself. The governance would fall to those individuals, which could bode ill or well for the ship of state. It's just going to depend. If there are enough Amaund Motierre types in it, things could be really craptastic in the coming years. If not, things could be comparatively decent until a suitable leader steps in or is seen fit to be placed there.

As for Ulfric, I think that even many Stormcloak supporters would agree that the man is not beloved even among all of those who follow him. Many do it for what they see as strictly pragmatic reasons. If he were to become High King, I have no doubt that he'd be wearing a constant target on his back and in an even more interesting trick of fate (and lore), maybe he himself is assassinated and Skyrim sort of re-lives the chaos that erupted when Torygg was killed. That's one way to foster lasting hardship and infighting in a province. Speculation, of course. But I don't think anything's as cut and dry as it might seem.

Yes, but the first time the Empire fell after the Oblivion Crisis they had a stronger military, the blades to help maintain order, a less weakened Cyrodiil filled with Bandits, Marauders, and other badies you can think of. And if the political bickering is still the same as it was back then, then the Government would be weakened considerably.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

The aldmeri dominion are three states true. The khajiits appear mostly as spys or assassins, and the it seems some of the bosmer ar are kinda disliking aspects of it. For bosmer i reference the elf bosmer who helps you smuggle your stuff into the embassy. Now then we have those the races and thier nations vs what little dark elves and orcs, imperials and bretons, some nords and a decent amount of redguards. Think the world wars... the axis starts strong but then pissed off to many nations. I think you overestimate the thalmor.... unless You Are a Thalmor Supporter!!! Dum dum DAH!

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

The aldmeri dominion are three states true. The khajiits appear mostly as spys or assassins, and the it seems some of the bosmer ar are kinda disliking aspects of it. For bosmer i reference the elf bosmer who helps you smuggle your stuff into the embassy. Now then we have those the races and thier nations vs what little dark elves and orcs, imperials and bretons, some nords and a decent amount of redguards. Think the world wars... the axis starts strong but then pissed off to many nations. I think you overestimate the thalmor.... unless You Are a Thalmor Supporter!!! Dum dum DAH!

The Thalmor are very adept with magic and among other things such as espionage and infiltration, the Khajiit are strong warriors, the Bosmer are excellent archers. Although there are some Bosmer who don't agree with the Dominion, there is still a whole nation who will fight for them. As for all the other races, again all of them seem to be in a weakened state at the moment besides High Rock and Hammerfell. High Rock is too far from Cyrodiil to be much use and Hammerfell is just one province. What little there is of Morrowind after the invasion of Argonia, and the destruction of the Red Mountain would probably be the Dunmers top concern. There's also the fact that not everyone wants to be a soldier to take in consideration. I'm sure the Orcs will help fight, but then again what good are they against magic and archers? I suppose there could be Nords, but Skyrim has just got out of a war and would be low on resources and men. They would still have to leave some of their military back to be able to secure their homeland too.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Lolz i am afriad we have gotten a touch off topic but allow me to finish this point. And thank you for the riveting conversation its sometimes droll on this thread. What good are warriors vs mages and archers? Well at close range there seems to be a high mage and archer fatality rate. Aye two strong states but how hard is it to move troops. Though i admit the redguards are a touch put out by the empire. But even with all the "weakened" states there is just so much more obvious man power. And you must remember the Thalmor would take time to mobilize as well. Which means it could be a steam roller. And though the argonians arent main combatants in this war they stand as a wild card.

 

[Raijin]

This is nothing but a fallacious assumption without base, and you have utterly no proof or facts that you can cite Balgruuf did accept Imperial coin to side with them. Balgruuf was torn in his decision until Ulfric begins threatening him, and dealing him an ultimatum where he essentially says "side with me or you're city is mine." Ulfric even acknowledges how futile and delusional he was in his campaign once you visit him in Sovngarde and if you're own leader is telling you that your cause is wrong I hardly see how you can argue against him.

Click here <~~~~~ for the video.
Like what Proventus Avenicci said it best. He pwned his own boss Balgruuf may of not liked what the Empire did, but he had no problems accepting chests of gold from them. That makes him a puppet of the Empire. But again Balgruuf is too cowardly to admit that he openly worships Talos. He does it in secret. Again Ulfric did not threaten him. He wanted to know if Balgruuf was on his side, and by saying yes he keeps his axe, and If not then he sided with the Empire, which he clearly did.

He's a man who above all covets power and uses those under his command to brutalize and kill without qualms, if the Markarth Incident is to serve as any example. Instead of trying to solve his issues with diplomacy and peacefully he'd much rather hit stuff with his axe.

By Talos not the Markarth incident again. Please no!

So here is Ulfric accepting the fact that his invasion against Whiterun will cost many Nord lives. Balgruuf seeks what is best for his own people and many times he has turned down the Imperials when he saw it in the best interests of Whiterun's population. Jarl Balgruuf presses for a treaty during Season Unending and it isn't until Ulfric delivers his ultimatum that any conflict arises. In short, Ulfric wants peace for his people.

That is part of war. War is ugly but it's necessary to start the recovery process. Balgruuf chosen his side and went with the Empire, and it came with consequences. Balgruuf, Being in the pocket of the Empire, doesn't seek what is best for his own people. Vignar is much more suitable Jarl than him. In fact he said that hes planning on building a temple so that people can go there to openly worship Talos (The founder of the Empire) once more, and let Heimskr run it.

Vignar: "If this was my Empire, I'd be able to worship whoever I damned well pleased. You wish to see an Empire without Talos? Without its soul? We should be fighting those witch-elves, not bending knee to them. The Emperor is nothing more than a puppet of the Thalmor. Skyrim needs a High King who will fight for her, and Whiterun needs a Jarl who will do the same."

I do agree. Ulfric does want peace for his people. That's why he fighting to get rid of the Thalmor puppets and regroup to then take the war to the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Lolz i am afriad we have gotten a touch off topic but allow me to finish this point. And thank you for the riveting conversation its sometimes droll on this thread. What good are warriors vs mages and archers? Well at close range there seems to be a high mage and archer fatality rate. Aye two strong states but how hard is it to move troops. Though i admit the redguards are a touch put out by the empire. But even with all the "weakened" states there is just so much more obvious man power. And you must remember the Thalmor would take time to mobilize as well. Which means it could be a steam roller. And though the argonians arent main combatants in this war they stand as a wild card.

Yes, but you would have the Khajiit attacking on close range, while you're being rained down upon by arrows and fireballs. The Thalmor and Bosmer aren't entirely range either, they will still have a few warriors. The Thalmor also already have camps/embassies accross Valenwood, Cyrodiil, Skyrim, and Elswyr they can intitate with the forces they already have and then bring more from the Summerset Isles. And since none of the Thalmor client states are in need to make their homeland the main concern of their military, they can use all that they have.

The Argonians live in tribes, so unless they all banded together and decide that they want to help with the conflict with the Thalmor I just don't see any reason why they would care. It's not likely the Thalmor pose any threat to them since it's almost impossible to invade Black Marsh due to the harsh environment.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

But yes, I guess this is far more interesting to talk about than which side is better.

 

[Ozan]

Spartans! Happy 300 page!!!)))

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Click here <~~~~~ for the video.
Like what Proventus Avenicci said it best. He pwned his own boss Balgruuf may of not liked what the Empire did, but he had no problems accepting chests of gold from them. That makes him a puppet of the Empire. But again Balgruuf is too cowardly to admit that he openly worships Talos. He does it in secret. Again Ulfric did not threaten him. He wanted to know if Balgruuf was on his side, and by saying yes he keeps his axe, and If not then he sided with the Empire, which he clearly did.

"Damn it! This isn't about gold!"

He says that right in the video, and there's a difference between accepting gold and accepting bribery. It doesn't make him a puppet of the Empire if gold was sent to him, he still challenges the Empire and turns down their advances when they try and send legionaries to Whiterun. He isn't being bought over by the Empire, nor is he going to take being threatened by Ulfric. This is why he presses for a treaty during Season Unending and this is why he's well liked by Skyrim players. Ulfric sent the axe to Balgruuf as an ultimatum, and if you paid attention during Ulfric's conversation with his lieutenant you'd know his policy was "If he's not with us, he's against us." As in Ulfric would not take anything short of "I'll side with you and give you free reign over my hold" as an answer.

By Talos not the Markarth incident again. Please no!

You mean where you were proven wrong yet again?

That is part of war. War is ugly but it's necessary to start the recovery process. Balgruuf chosen his side and went with the Empire, and it came with consequences.

Actually depending on the player's choices he sides with nobody, and it isn't until Ulfric deals a brutish ultimatum does any conflict whatsoever begin. Trying to justify this with "it's just war" is completely futile.

Balgruuf, Being in the pocket of the Empire, doesn't seek what is best for his own people.

He actually does and you'd know this if you paid attention to him and went through with Season Unending.

Vignar is much more suitable Jarl than him. In fact he said that hes planning on building a temple so that people can go there to openly worship Talos (The founder of the Empire) once more, and let Heimskr run it.

No, Vigar has the same pigheaded attitude as Ulfric does where he sets aside reason and diplomacy in favor of his ill-perceived notion of honor and valor. Seeing as how he does nothing for Whiterun and nothing changes following his rule I can say little about his leadership skills.

I do agree. Ulfric does want peace for his people. That's why he fighting to get rid of the Thalmor puppets and regroup to then take the war to the Aldmeri Dominion.

I actually had a type there and misplaced Balgruuf with Ulfric. What's funny about the whole scenario is how Ulfric was in contact for some time with the Thalmor and was a potential asset to them until he broke off contact, and even funnier how despite being lead to believe he was the sole reason for the Imperial City's downfall he keeps this secret to himself. If Ulfric cared about Skyrim and it's people, he'd take the fight to the Thalmor to begin with. He himself even acknowledges this in Sovngarde.

And the funniest thing about this is how you continue pressing that the Empire was weak for submitting to the Thalmor instead of fighting to the death while Ulfric submitted to his Imperial ambush party knowing he and his men would be executed. Go figure.

 

[Ozan]

Isn't Sovngarde for honorable Nord types?