Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Crowley]

The Dragonborn won't have much mention in the next game and new lore. The players rarely are, since the Dragonborn can be any race or gender, Bethesda will do what they always do in regards to that. There won't be a Dragonborn for either Empire or Stormcloaks.

When comparing the strength of the Aldmeri Dominion, the Thalmor in Skyrim are not soldiers of the Dominion, they're Agents from it. The military of the Aldmeri is being kept out of Skyrim and other provinces by the Empire.

There is going to be a big show down between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion. May as well get on the side that can actually reach the Aldmeri Dominion instead of boasting about reaching it.

If the showdown is the main focus of the game, I think it'll be quite enjoyable. It really depends on how they go about it (or even IF they choose to)

 

[DrunkenMage]

I agree with Nenlata when he says that an assault on Summerset Isle would most likely be a failure. However, I feel that the Thalmor would have issues on the offense in Skyrim.

I have difficulty believing that the Dominion would get there easily by sea, due to Hammerfell pirates, and there would be difficulty by the roads as well, as there are few roads in Skyrim, and all are heavily manned.

Dominion don't need to go to Skyrim that way. If by the off chance they actually defeat the Empire, there is a pass into Skyrim from Cyrodiil.

Though the Stormcloaks aren't planning on defending.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Hammerfell has their own treaty with the Aldermi Dominion, highly unlikely they would risk their treaty for the Nords of Skyrim. The Nords didn't come to the aid of the Redguards, don't think the Reguards will help them.

So either the Stormcloaks are just boasting about attacking the Dominion or they're going to do something stupid and try go by sea and get slaughtered.

Though one way to actually settle the debate between Stormcloaks or Imperials would be to have Hammerfell invade and take over Skyrim. Wouldn't be against lore and I could see Hammerfell taking advantage of a weakened Skyrim, they haven't been this weakened in over two eras.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

I agree with Nenlata when he says that an assault on Summerset Isle would most likely be a failure. However, I feel that the Thalmor would have issues on the offense in Skyrim.

I have difficulty believing that the Dominion would get there easily by sea, due to Hammerfell pirates, and there would be difficulty by the roads as well, as there are few roads in Skyrim, and all are heavily manned.

Dominion don't need to go to Skyrim that way. If by the off chance they actually defeat the Empire, there is a pass into Skyrim from Cyrodiil.

Though the Stormcloaks aren't planning on defending.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Hammerfell has their own treaty with the Aldermi Dominion, highly unlikely they would risk their treaty for the Nords of Skyrim. The Nords didn't come to the aid of the Redguards, don't think the Reguards will help them.

So either the Stormcloaks are just boasting about attacking the Dominion or they're going to do something stupid and try go by sea and get slaughtered.

Though one way to actually settle the debate between Stormcloaks or Imperials would be to have Hammerfell invade and take over Skyrim. Wouldn't be against lore and I could see Hammerfell taking advantage of a weakened Skyrim, they haven't been this weakened in over two eras.

Generally speaking, I doubt that rogue pirates would all obey the treaty, or will care of the Dominion's intentions or destination.

But yes, I was just talking from a defensive perspective. Wasn't saying that the Stormcloaks WOULD follow that line of thinking.

EDIT: Also, I missed my mistake in my initial post. I meant that their are few roads TO Skyrim (from Cyrodiil).

Also, I'm interested in whether Hammerfell would truly be interested, and why.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Rogue pirates don't pose that much of a threat to the naval ability of the Dominion.

When it comes to Hammerfell helping the Nords, there is a better chance they would just invade Skyrim. Hammerfell and Skyrim haven't been good friends, though Skyrim isn't good friends with anyone.

Hammerfell and Skyrim fought against each other during the Alliance wars, Skyrim invaded Hammerfell and stole many miles of land during the Imperial Simulacrum and they also didn't care to help the Redguards fighting the Dominion.

I just don't see Hammerfell coming to the aid of a province that has repeatedly throughout history messed with them.

Though I also truly wouldn't be surprised to actually find that Hammerfell, House Redoran & High Rock to decide to take some of Skyrim as pay back.

Stormcloaks just isolate themselves, surrounded by provinces that dislike them. Cyrodiil was Skyrim's last buddy, without the Empire's protection... Skyrim is up for grabs. It is only protected by a bunch of Militia.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

Rogue pirates don't pose that much of a threat to the naval ability of the Dominion.

When it comes to Hammerfell helping the Nords, there is a better chance they would just invade Skyrim. Hammerfell and Skyrim haven't been good friends, though Skyrim isn't good friends with anyone.

Hammerfell and Skyrim fought against each other during the Alliance wars, Skyrim invaded Hammerfell and stole many miles of land during the Imperial Simulacrum and they also didn't care to help the Redguards fighting the Dominion.

I just don't see Hammerfell coming to the aid of a province that has repeatedly throughout history messed with them.

Though I also truly wouldn't be surprised to actually find that Hammerfell, House Redoran & High Rock to decide to take some of Skyrim as pay back.

Stormcloaks just isolate themselves, surrounded by provinces that dislike them. Cyrodiil was Skyrim's last buddy, without the Empire's protection... Skyrim is up for grabs. It is only protected by a bunch of Militia.

Again, I wasn't speaking for the main branch of Hammerfell, or its government. However, I understand what you're saying.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Except it'd be the same as saying, Skyrim pirates or Cyrodiil pirates taking part. They're pirates, they attack merchant ships. They're hardly going to attack a military vessel or mercenary vessel.

You ever did the quest Rise in the East? That is just what one mercenary ship of the East Empire Company can do. Imagine what a Military vessel would be capable of in TES.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

Except it'd be the same as saying, Skyrim pirates or Cyrodiil pirates taking part. They're pirates, they attack merchant ships. They're hardly going to attack a military vessel or mercenary vessel.

You ever did the quest Rise in the East? That is just what one mercenary ship of the East Empire Company can do. Imagine what a Military vessel would be capable of in TES.

Ah yes, I remember that quest now...well ****.

I'm still for Imperials

 

[DrunkenMage]

Except it'd be the same as saying, Skyrim pirates or Cyrodiil pirates taking part. They're pirates, they attack merchant ships. They're hardly going to attack a military vessel or mercenary vessel.

You ever did the quest Rise in the East? That is just what one mercenary ship of the East Empire Company can do. Imagine what a Military vessel would be capable of in TES.

Ah yes, I remember that quest now...well ****.

I'm still for Imperials

I remember the first time I did that quest. That little ship just destroying everything with fire balls, I was like "Oh plops!" running down the beach.

Saving Private Mage.

 

[NENALATA]

Yep that quest was fun. It was kind of weird at the end though because the last enemy kept falling the water and took some time to kill.

Not to mention the mild embarrassment I exp by trying to swim to the boat, only to find out they wouldn't let me in. :/

 

[Rimfaxe96]

I agree with Nenlata when he says that an assault on Summerset Isle would most likely be a failure. However, I feel that the Thalmor would have issues on the offense in Skyrim.

I have difficulty believing that the Dominion would get there easily by sea, due to Hammerfell pirates, and there would be difficulty by the roads as well, as there are few roads in Skyrim, and all are heavily manned.

The Dominion had internal struggles though, but eventually we can't say what was going on there during those 70 years when they went completely silent.
Lathenil of Sunhold's books do mention at least some sort of secret resistance, and they might try to use the chance should the Empire ever decide to try a naval assault. There's just not much lore provided for this subject, we don't know how much manpower remains in Alinor while the rest is slaughtered in battle. Maybe the loremasters have other ideas as well, but so far it's not impossible for either the Empire or the Dominion to conquer the other, though admittedly the Empire has an advantage to some degree.

 

[DrunkenMage]

First of all, Justiciars use magic like probably most of the Aldmeri army. Magic gets around numbers. And High Elves are born with more magic and deeper understanding of arcane strengths and abilities than any other race except for the Bretons.

Not always true, there have been Nords who were training to be Psijics. Magical ability takes time and training, no matter the race. While Altmer are gifted in the arcane they once suffered great weakness to all forms of magicka.

The High Elves supreme Magical abilities allow for (1) Altmer soldier to be worth at least (2) to (3) Legionnaires. Esp if summoning is used. Not to mention the superior elven/glass light armor or Ebony.

Not all Altmer soldiers are battlemages or spellswords. Their worth is no more greater than one Legionnaire, the Legions are made up of all races, even Altmer. Also how many of the battles went during the Great War, the Legions and armies of the Dominion seem to have been evenly matched. The Aldmeri Dominion isn't the only army to have magical ability, the Empire has Legions of Battlemages known as the Shadow Legion.

The Aldermi used elven armor during the Great War.

If you actually look at the history of the Imperial Legion, they are very skilled at overcoming things in an interesting way. During the Second Era, Mages cast water breathing on the entire army and they marched under a lake to assault a fortress. During the Mede dynasty, the Battlemages empowered the Legions with the power of flight and they assaulted a floating island.

Legions can fly. That just makes every argument invalid.

The Thalmor would annihilate anything that set foot on the shores of Summerset. The best you could hope for is try and take down Valenwood and Elsweyr. However, put all (3) races together and the burning hatred from the Thalmor and... I'm not sure there's an army in Tamriel who could stop us. Of course, there are exceptions.

The Thalmor are no more powerful than other Mages from the provinces. In fact the Magical ability of the Thalmor is questionable since they gained power through manipulation of the crowd. The Thalmor made enemies with the Psijic Order who are the most powerful mages on Nirn, no doubt they will involve themselves if the time came. Causing storms that could destroy the Aldmeri navy, and other such things.

The oppressive nature of the Thalmor could be their downfall, no doubt there would be internal fighting if the Empire was on the offensive, the Bosmer who were at the mercy of racial purges. Could very well revolt.

And logistics comes into play as well. The Thalmor armies are more quality over quantity. However, where we win is the Thalmor can make up for the difference with HORDES of Wood Elves and Khajit soldiers. They draw agro, the Altmer protect their flanks and counter any mage harass.

Imperial Legions have been perfecting their fighting style for Three Eras. The same could be said about the armies of the Empire, heavy and light infantry striking down foes in their path, archers raining down arrows, battlemages raining down fire, providing wards and other protection spells. Heavy cavalry slamming into the flanks of the Dominion's forces. Then throw in hundreds to thousands of Orc Berserker troops and it'll be one hell of a sight.

 

[Pronged Pickle]

The Dominion had internal struggles though, but eventually we can't say what was going on there during those 70 years when they went completely silent.
Lathenil of Sunhold's books do mention at least some sort of secret resistance, and they might try to use the chance should the Empire ever decide to try a naval assault. There's just not much lore provided for this subject, we don't know how much manpower remains in Alinor while the rest is slaughtered in battle. Maybe the loremasters have other ideas as well, but so far it's not impossible for either the Empire or the Dominion to conquer the other, though admittedly the Empire has an advantage to some degree.

While both were heavily influenced by the Great War, in a very bad way, when it all comes down to it, the Dominion won. And they know the Empire's plan of building up strength for another war. They're prepared. Hence the dossier referring to the Great War as "The First War." Please correct me, but I see very little advantage the Empire has.

However, as I said, both seemed close to, if not, equally, damaged by the war. The Dominion is currently trying, in Skyrim, to throw off the Empire through sabotage and guerrilla warfare with the whole Civil War (I don't believe they started it w/ Ulfric, but are just taking advantage of it). Why do that when you can just conquer them flat out? Just a little evidence of the near equality of the two factions.

 

[Crowley]

How many prongs does a pickle have anyway?

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Dominion had internal struggles though, but eventually we can't say what was going on there during those 70 years when they went completely silent.
Lathenil of Sunhold's books do mention at least some sort of secret resistance, and they might try to use the chance should the Empire ever decide to try a naval assault. There's just not much lore provided for this subject, we don't know how much manpower remains in Alinor while the rest is slaughtered in battle. Maybe the loremasters have other ideas as well, but so far it's not impossible for either the Empire or the Dominion to conquer the other, though admittedly the Empire has an advantage to some degree.

While both were heavily influenced by the Great War, in a very bad way, when it all comes down to it, the Dominion won. And they know the Empire's plan of building up strength for another war. They're prepared. Hence the dossier referring to the Great War as "The First War." Please correct me, but I see very little advantage the Empire has.

However, as I said, both seemed close to, if not, equally, damaged by the war. The Dominion is currently trying, in Skyrim, to throw off the Empire through sabotage and guerrilla warfare with the whole Civil War (I don't believe they started it w/ Ulfric, but are just taking advantage of it). Why do that when you can just conquer them flat out? Just a little evidence of the near equality of the two factions.

They knew the Empire's plan to rebuild from the start. That was the point of the White-Gold Concordat, it wasn't a lasting peace neither the Empire nor the Aldmeri Dominion were going for long term solution.

Both the Empire and Thalmor make mention of a second war coming. The advantage the Empire has is time, they're preparing faster, the Thalmor take their view in the long term which is noted by the events leading up to the Great War. The Civil War keeps the Empire distracted and delays a conflict between the armies of the Dominion and the armies of the Empire.

Nearly the entire Imperial army is already on the Dominion's border, with the Dominion starting to line up their borders. While the Imperial province suffered greatly, with destruction which noted in game many things were ruined. The Dominion suffered greatly with the loss of an entire army, also all the others they sent into Cyrodiil. Thalmor leadership gambled on a risky move in the Great War by sending all available forces into Cyrodiil to end the war once and for all. It back fired when three Imperial armies suddenly appeared in Cyrodiil.

2) Nenalata, how on earth did you come to the conclusion that the Thalmor use ebony armour? It's actually the Empire that are known to use ebony. This is an example of the assumptions that discredit the rest of your frantic arguments.

For almost certain, however, very few if any Dominion soldiers would have Ebony because of it's rarety. So you're right on that. It's just, the Dominion represents a good chunk of the Elven world in Tamriel and there's no reason why like the Dominion shock troopers wouldn't be wearing heavy Ebony armor.

When the Empire used Ebony armor, they also used Daedric. This was during the Second Era however and when the Empire controlled every province except Morrowind.

The problem with using Ebony armor now is that the Dominion and Empire are too small to be spending that much on Ebony, the weight of it and the expense are too much for the gains. Ebony armor is now more found on mercenaries with a small fortune or Lords and Nobles with money to throw around. Soldiers having ebony would just be too expensive to have ebony suits of armor made and tailored to each man or mer.

"They were golden, even when they were dead. But their blood was red. I knew it would be."

Golden refers to the elven armor of the Bosmer and Altmer troops.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

While both were heavily influenced by the Great War, in a very bad way, when it all comes down to it, the Dominion won. And they know the Empire's plan of building up strength for another war. They're prepared. Hence the dossier referring to the Great War as "The First War." Please correct me, but I see very little advantage the Empire has.

It's somewhat a matter of perspective. When it comes to diplomacy, the Thalmor won, the Empire surrendered.
But that cost them all of their forces in Cyrodiil, bit of a high price, wouldn't you agree with that?
As for advantages which the Empire has, take a look at the past 5 - 500 pages. There's a lot to pick up from.
Unless DrunkenMage is in the mood to write a summary, of course.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Your Empire is lost...
Your Emperor will soon be dead...
Your friends in Skyrim will not survive...
Your troops on our border have very few re-enforcements...


It is over. Behold the Thalmor, Behold the Future!!!

LONG LIVE THE ALDMERI DOMINION​

The Empire didn't lose, both the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire fought to a standstill. Though technically the only success the Dominion had was due to the fact the Legions were spread across four provinces and taken by surprise. When the Legions were able to counter-attack they won in every battle.

The death of Titus Mede II is fine, in fact it is a good thing. The Dark Brotherhood frame the Stormcloaks for majority of the quest line. A new Imperial force is already assembling in Cyrodiil to march into Skyrim when the Stormcloaks are winning the Civil War. The death of the Emperor by the hands of the Dark Brotherhood and the death of the Emperor's cousin which is framed on the Stormcloaks brings what Ulfric feared would happen. "If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire."

The Legions on the border have few reinforcements? Well nearly the entire Imperial army is on the Dominion's border. Twenty six years has passed so they may have from 10-18 Legions on the Dominion's doorstep. Few reinforcements isn't the word for it, since those on the border are reinforced by the legions that are with them. In fact they could be reinforced during the entire next outbreak of war since the Legions are close together and not spread across four provinces like the last war.

There isn't a need for reinforcements from other provinces, the entire army is already in Cyrodiil. The Auxiliary garrisons that are in the other provinces would trickle down, but their number doesn't matter too much.

So perhaps you should reevaluate your position. Lore wise during the Great War anytime the Empire went on the offensive, they won, they owned the Aldmeri in every counter attack. It is over, for you though.

What you should worry about is more if Hammerfell sides with the Empire once more. They would probably demand some things like they did with Tiber Septim, probably get a third treaty written up.

The Legions can draw the Dominion's army into conflict and hold them there. The West Imperial Navy, could attack the ports on Valenwood and blockade Aldmeri from reinforcements or retreat.

The problem with the Thalmor is their arrogance. They would of won the Great War, had they stuck to the objectives they knew would work. Except they got greedy and decided to make a gamble to fight the entire Empire. When the second Great War sparks, all of Tamriel will be up in arms. While many provinces dislike the Empire, they hate the Thalmor more.

Edit: The greatest advantage the Empire has, is that the Psijic Order are also against the Thalmor. So you actually better hope Cyrodiil doesn't make allies of the Sea Elves, who do have a powerful navy. They were only beaten last time by the aid of the Psijic Order and Imperial Navy, but one of the good things about the Imperials of Cyrodiil. They make amazing diplomats, you could war with them for over an era and they would still be able to convince you to join their side.

 

[Jeremius]

DrunkenMage: Despite this, the Empire ended up actually losing the Great War. The White-Gold Concordant was a surrender paper. What did the Thalmor give up to the Empire? just the ability to overtly own them. The Empire is still owned by the Thalmor thanks to it. it will take a true warmonger like Ulfric or Galmar to get the Empire to break it and ramp up military production to a reasonable level.

 

[DrunkenMage]

DrunkenMage: Despite this, the Empire ended up actually losing the Great War. The White-Gold Concordant was a surrender paper. What did the Thalmor give up to the Empire? just the ability to overtly own them. The Empire is still owned by the Thalmor thanks to it. it will take a true warmonger like Ulfric or Galmar to get the Empire to break it and ramp up military production to a reasonable level.

No.

The Thalmor gave up large staggering tributes.

Ulfric and Galmar to ramp up Military production? With what? Ulfric's poor management already made his own Hold basically broke. Skyrim depends heavily on the Empire for much needed resources and food.

Skyrim once was able to stand on it's own, but that was a long time ago when they had holdings in High Rock, Morrowind & Cyrodiil during the First Empire of the Nords. Skyrim alone is unable to support the population, due to the harsh climate.

Trade is important, but Stormcloaks are unwilling to buy from Non-Nords, their xenophobic views damages them.

Ulfric's execution of General Tullius after his surrender, ends any hope of a treaty with Cyrodiil. There is already a new Imperial force gathering in Cyrodiil preparing to march into Skyrim, which the Stormcloaks themselves mention could make all their gains for naught.

Ulfric let ego, personal glory and self ambition get in the way of being reasonable. His care for songs and a good story is something that even irritates Galmar at the end.

When you want to disagree with one of my posts, at least try come up with an argument better than a paragraph without backing.

 

[NENALATA]

What tha- where'd my post go? Damn Internet Exploder 7. Maybe I should upgrade?

DrunkenMage: Despite this, the Empire ended up actually losing the Great War. The White-Gold Concordant was a surrender paper. What did the Thalmor give up to the Empire? just the ability to overtly own them. The Empire is still owned by the Thalmor thanks to it. it will take a true warmonger like Ulfric or Galmar to get the Empire to break it and ramp up military production to a reasonable level.

You know... I dunno. I think he's got a point here DM. In fact I know he does. Tech, the Empire did lose the war... you guys surrendered... the Thalmor gave the Empire PEACE. We didn't give the Empire staggering tributes, the Empire did although I'm sure the Thalmor didn't necessarily get EVERYTHING they wanted. Empire was defeated because the Legion was broken and heavily beaten down after Red Ring. TMII couldn't keep the war machine rolling and he couldn't force the Thalmor out of the cities in Southern Cyrodil so he did the smart thing and pressed for peace.

I'll be honest though ~ Sometimes a situation can be so bad, you need someone like Ulfric or Galmar to not be the voice of reason, but the voice of reasoning. Meaning forget being proper, hang the code and hang the rules. Sometimes in order to change wicked rules and/or rulers, you need a leader who themselves is another form of evil.

This is very true and I know exactly where Jeremias is coming from.

The problem with the Thalmor is their arrogance. They would of won the Great War, had they stuck to the objectives they knew would work. Except they got greedy and decided to make a gamble to fight the entire Empire. When the second Great War sparks, all of Tamriel will be up in arms. While many provinces dislike the Empire, they hate the Thalmor more.

Hehehe this is also very true. In many ways too. When you're in a war... you play to win. Anything else... will get ya killed.

 

[DrunkenMage]

What tha- where'd my post go? Damn Internet Exploder 7. Maybe I should upgrade?

DrunkenMage: Despite this, the Empire ended up actually losing the Great War. The White-Gold Concordant was a surrender paper. What did the Thalmor give up to the Empire? just the ability to overtly own them. The Empire is still owned by the Thalmor thanks to it. it will take a true warmonger like Ulfric or Galmar to get the Empire to break it and ramp up military production to a reasonable level.

You know... I dunno. I think he's got a point here DM. In fact I know he does. Tech, the Empire did lose the war... you guys surrendered... the Thalmor gave the Empire PEACE. We didn't give the Empire staggering tributes, the Empire did although I'm sure the Thalmor didn't necessarily get EVERYTHING they wanted. Empire was defeated because the Legion was broken and heavily beaten down after Red Ring. TMII couldn't keep the war machine rolling and he couldn't force the Thalmor out of the cities in Southern Cyrodil so he did the smart thing and pressed for peace.

I'll be honest though ~ Sometimes a situation can be so bad, you need someone like Ulfric or Galmar to not be the voice of reason, but the voice of reasoning. Meaning forget being proper, hang the code and hang the rules. Sometimes in order to change wicked rules and/or rulers, you need a leader who themselves is another form of evil.

This is very true and I know exactly where Jeremias is coming from.

They gave up staggering tributes. It was one of the original demands that the Empire pays large amounts of tribute.

Titus Mede II, couldn't take his forces into the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire didn't lose, the Thalmor didn't lose. It was a temporary peace treaty, both the Aldmeri Dominion and Empire welcomed peace. Neither side was in position to continue the war, as evident at the results in Hammerfell where the Thalmor struggled to keep hold of their piece of Southern Hammerfell.

Most of the Empire wanted peace, Skyrim wanted peace, High Rock wanted peace and Cyrodiil wanted peace. Hammerfell didn't and rejected the White-Gold Concordat, but the other provinces accepted the treaty and for twenty six years it was without issue.

Though when time passes the facts become distorted. You can see this by speaking with many Stormcloaks who blame Torygg for accepting the treaty, when Torygg didn't accept it, High King Istlod accepted the treaty. Torygg was open to thoughts of independence.

Also another example when they say the Imperial City was nearly destroyed and then the Emperor surrendered right after. That wasn't the case at all, the Empire did a counter attack and was victorious in Cyrodiil.

 

[NENALATA]

No, I hear you and I know that.

Ondolomor doesn't agree with your assessment however...