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ZeroDragon

Bring me my broadsword, and clear understanding.
My current character is attempting to be a self sufficient all round balanced member of the community, but when it's time for the stealth to be put to one side I'd describe him as more of a bull in a china shop style.
 
Does anyone find being a pure-build (i.e. two-handed warrior, or full-on mage) hindering them in any way throughout your game? Are their tactics you wish you could exploit better while being on one extreme of the spectrum or the other?
As a matter of fact, I mostly play Pure builds, to some degree, or other. Mostly to limit level so it doesn't get to the point where Destruction caps out, and the only effective way to continue is Smithing.
 
Personally, I found pure mage being slightly harder than being pure warrior, but that might be because I kept putting points into magicka to be able to constantly spam spells, and if I ever ran out of it (which was rare, with the exception against stronger enemies) I would just pop the racial for magicka regeneration. Again, because it was a mage, getting hit in melee was always trouble, even with buffs and all the spam.
That's just if you're going for a no-brainer Artillery mage, the great thing about a pure wizard is all the different effects, and combos you can put together. Knowing what to use when is a big part of the attraction for me, over the "hit him, hit him again" iterative loop of the Warrior.
With pure warrior there's not a lot to it, but still fun. Just get the best armor and weapons you can find and hack'n'slash through everyone, and with all the gold I got I would just buy potions. Not even mages were trouble, especially due to the Block perks, resisting half elemental damage while your shield is up and being able to charge with it, knocking everyone in your path down. The latter one allows you to be able to get into swinging range and do what you do best, which is cutting things into small pieces, or bashing them into a bloody pulp, whatever rocks your boat.
2handed can use the Bash side of the block tree to stun, and make an opening for strikes. Since the bash is faster than the strike with a Greatsword, much less warhammer, this is how I survive unarmored. Use the better endurance to split up the enemies, and manuever them into a series of duels, then keep them off balance, so you take little if any damage. Great Critical charge is a great way to start it off with a staggaring double damage strike, then if they survive that, you can usually finish them quickly. i'd suggest Archery too, or you get ate up by bows, and spells, though.
Two-Handed way can be more challenging than One-Handed/Block, but to balance that I found putting more into health and getting Great Critical Charge worked fine, but always carried a shield for the occasional shield bash.
Blocking with a weapon doesn't protect as much, but does more damage with a bash. therefore, don't block, as much (it's unavoidable, but don't just stand there, and tank.)
 

tat2teel

Member
Mine would have to be an illusionist assassin/archer
 

Dragon Kin

Dovah Fen Ni Dii
I've played all three major classes, prefer stealth/assassin/thief the most.

Argonian assassin/thief is my favorite
 

KritikalPT

Active Member
That's just if you're going for a no-brainer Artillery mage, the great thing about a pure wizard is all the different effects, and combos you can put together. Knowing what to use when is a big part of the attraction for me, over the "hit him, hit him again" iterative loop of the Warrior.

Well, I never said I was a *good* mage, but yes, you have a wide array of spells, which makes a pure make very versatile. Laying runes and then getting the attention of a monster is a good way to open combat, and you can also use the wall spells for some more damage, both in offense as well as defense.

2handed can use the Bash side of the block tree to stun, and make an opening for strikes. Since the bash is faster than the strike with a Greatsword, much less warhammer, this is how I survive unarmored. Use the better endurance to split up the enemies, and manuever them into a series of duels, then keep them off balance, so you take little if any damage. Great Critical charge is a great way to start it off with a staggaring double damage strike, then if they survive that, you can usually finish them quickly. i'd suggest Archery too, or you get ate up by bows, and spells, though.
Blocking with a weapon doesn't protect as much, but does more damage with a bash. therefore, don't block, as much (it's unavoidable, but don't just stand there, and tank.)

Personally, I much prefer trading off power from a two-handed weapon bash for a much safer and protective shield. Sure, I end up doing less damage, but I do take half elemental damage, arrows stop being a worry and I can, if I want, knock everyone down, or key targets, and with a fast weapon you can make up to the loss of power with speed, to some degree that is.
 
Well, I never said I was a *good* mage, but yes, you have a wide array of spells, which makes a pure make very versatile. Laying runes and then getting the attention of a monster is a good way to open combat, and you can also use the wall spells for some more damage, both in offense as well as defense.
Walls, and Rune spells are great for kiting big badass NPCs, like Giants, and Warlord Gathrik onto. Rather than standing up, and using them for defense, run away, and cast them at your feet. You don't even have to face them, though it's nice to have it in 3rd person view, and scrolled back as high as possible. 75DPS is nothing to sneeze at, even for a Giant, and adding burning damage just melts them faster. You have 2 hands, so assuming enough magicka, you can cast Flames, and Frost so they don't have the stamina to sprint. Also, Wall of Frost is the fastest, most effective way I've found to beat Big Bad Al once he's grounded. You know where he's going to land, and with his Stamina drained, he can't take back off, so you only have to Dragonrend him once (keep Clear Skies ready to counter his Meteor Storm.) His large footprint means you can hose him down with multiple instances, so he's actually beaten in a matter of seconds. Just use Dragonskin, and the Atronach Stone, so his breath attacks keep you topped off, and keep your distance. He can't hurt you.

Personally, I much prefer trading off power from a two-handed weapon bash for a much safer and protective shield. Sure, I end up doing less damage, but I do take half elemental damage, arrows stop being a worry and I can, if I want, knock everyone down, or key targets, and with a fast weapon you can make up to the loss of power with speed, to some degree that is.
Hey, play your way, man. You're right, a Shield is much better, I was just suggesting one way that 2h can be less underpowered. You can Hack&Bash a lot more effectively with a Handaxe (preferably with Fire Damage) and the Targe of the Blooded. Thing is, I don't just do OP builds, the ones I enjoy the most are balanced with the game, so i actually have a chance of dying, if I don't play my cards right. It really helps reinforce the Damoclean thread suspending my disbelief as I single handedly take on entire armies of enemies, and when I do eventually prevail, I feel more like I earned it.

Get the Shield of Ysgramor, and that bumps you up to 70% elemental protection. You can stack on Otar, the Lord, Breton, and so forth for 2 levels of magic defense. MR is counted before Elemental, so if you have 75% MR, then 75% say Resist Shock, it goes down to 1/8th of the original damage. All this is counted after Spell Absorbtion, so the 50% that gets through the Atronach Stone (that's chance of being absorbed, by the way, not total discount like Resist) you can get it down to a trickle. Not to say I can't make a nigh invulnerable unstoppable gamebreaker, i just don't like to play them. If this was an MMO, I'd be playing one of these meta builds with the strategies, and tactics that make my unarmored precicely nerfed ones actually viable...
 

nolandman

A ranging, spell-sword Lich
As a matter of fact, I mostly play Pure builds, to some degree, or other. Mostly to limit level so it doesn't get to the point where Destruction caps out, and the only effective way to continue is Smithing.
I've run into that problem a lot actually. Where I'll max out relevant skills and be left with nothing to really add to my experience to level up. If I'm interpreting correctly, you're saying a pure build can help to avoid this?
 
I've run into that problem a lot actually. Where I'll max out relevant skills and be left with nothing to really add to my experience to level up. If I'm interpreting correctly, you're saying a pure build can help to avoid this?
When you level all 18 skills to 100, you can't gain any more, so you reach the maximum level of 81. OTOH, you can just work 3 skills (Like Archery, 1H, and Light Armor) and set your own cap at around 30. (Depending on starting bonuses.) Just don't work other skills, at all, and you won't go up in level. neither will any of the NPCs, so this freezes the game at that level, while you go around killing everything, running all the quests, and spending your money. (In shops, you'll eventually earn Speech XP.) Or, you can change class, and add new skills to augment your first ones, while the game also goes up some more tiers. This is tricky, though, because you want to save the fast levelers for later, when you need more XP to advance. Block, for instance, is good to get over with early, and Illusion, since it becomes less effective as NPCs level past it.

So, say you do a Spell/Shield combo to start, with Destruction, Block, and HA. About level 30, you're nearly static, so you can start working Conjuration, and 1H with Bound Sword (An incredibly fast leveler) while HA continues to catch up. Or, save Crafting for this point, when you've already got your weapon skill/s up to 100, and the only way to increase damage is to improve your gear. This is getting beyond the "Pure" build, but what I'm trying to say is, you can start off fairly pure, and then branch out once you have a solid base well ahead of the NPC curve. The greatest advantage to this is you never really have to grind. Just stick to the 3 skills (optimal, if you're filling out the trees. Otherwise, you find yourself with perks you don't have the skill to spend, or skills without the points to perk, but you can do 4-5 if some of them are half trees, or splashes. Also, the offensive skills, like destruction tend to be perk intensive. For instance, just Novice-Expert, and all the Augment Elements are 10 perks without Dual Cast, and Impact!) and ignore the rest.

The main problem I have with Pure builds is Speech, which I avoid by staying out of shops for the most part. You have to buy a lot of your spellbooks, and higher level robes (Archmages' and Morokei are a Starter Set, Master robes are far superior) but I use a lot of spells that can be found, or gotten from quests (Flame Cloak from the Scorched Cape, Flaming Familiar, Detect Life, Bound Sword, and Bow...) I also have a Follower to open chests, so I don't have to worry about Lockpicking.
 

nolandman

A ranging, spell-sword Lich
When you level all 18 skills to 100, you can't gain any more, so you reach the maximum level of 81. OTOH, you can just work 3 skills (Like Archery, 1H, and Light Armor) and set your own cap at around 30. (Depending on starting bonuses.) Just don't work other skills, at all, and you won't go up in level. neither will any of the NPCs, so this freezes the game at that level, while you go around killing everything, running all the quests, and spending your money. (In shops, you'll eventually earn Speech XP.) Or, you can change class, and add new skills to augment your first ones, while the game also goes up some more tiers. This is tricky, though, because you want to save the fast levelers for later, when you need more XP to advance. Block, for instance, is good to get over with early, and Illusion, since it becomes less effective as NPCs level past it.

So, say you do a Spell/Shield combo to start, with Destruction, Block, and HA. About level 30, you're nearly static, so you can start working Conjuration, and 1H with Bound Sword (An incredibly fast leveler) while HA continues to catch up. Or, save Crafting for this point, when you've already got your weapon skill/s up to 100, and the only way to increase damage is to improve your gear. This is getting beyond the "Pure" build, but what I'm trying to say is, you can start off fairly pure, and then branch out once you have a solid base well ahead of the NPC curve. The greatest advantage to this is you never really have to grind. Just stick to the 3 skills (optimal, if you're filling out the trees. Otherwise, you find yourself with perks you don't have the skill to spend, or skills without the points to perk, but you can do 4-5 if some of them are half trees, or splashes.) and ignore the rest.

The main problem I have with Pure builds is Speech, which I avoid by staying out of shops for the most part. You have to buy a lot of your spellbooks, and higher level robes (Archmages' and Morokei are a Starter Set, Master robes are far superior) but I use a lot of spells that can be found, or gotten from quests (Flame Cloak from the Scorched Cape, Flaming Familiar, Detect Life, Bound Sword, and Bow...) I also have a Follower to open chests, so I don't have to worry about Lockpicking.
Ah, I understand you better now. I use that tactic to some degree as well; starting pure and branching out at around level 25-30. Usually I start off beefing up my one-handed, block, and archery skills; using alteration, destruction, and restoration as supporting skills. Later on focusing on the latter three, then jumping to my Thief aligned skills (sneak, alchemy, speech, or lock picking depending on what I'm going for at the time). I don't usually keep around a follower but you've shown me a reason to with your use of one for opening chests.
 
Ah, I understand you better now. I use that tactic to some degree as well; starting pure and branching out at around level 25-30. Usually I start off beefing up my one-handed, block, and archery skills; using alteration, destruction, and restoration as supporting skills. Later on focusing on the latter three, then jumping to my Thief aligned skills (sneak, alchemy, speech, or lock picking depending on what I'm going for at the time). I don't usually keep around a follower but you've shown me a reason to with your use of one for opening chests.
The best formula seems to be 1 close, 1 ranged, and 1 defense/assistance skill. For instance, 1H, Destruction, and Alteration for a Spellblade. Followers seem to be best for opening chests, and hauling loot, but there's other tactics you can use with them. Like Tank&Spank, where you Command her to go forward, and keep them busy while you hit them from behind. (I like Mjoll with Volendrung, Rahgot, Sigdis' Amulet Fragment, and uthgerd's Plate Steel, but you can also give Jenassa Windshear, and the BoW, or Lydia the Targe.)

A lot of sneaky types forgo tank followers because they get them busted, but you can use it to your advantage with a Sniper, by sending them forward while you take pot-shots from the shadows. Or, if you have a dependable ranged follower, you can run in, and tank for them. Stack up Magic Resistance, especially Shock, and level up J'zrgo, it works great!
 

KritikalPT

Active Member
Hey, play your way, man. You're right, a Shield is much better, I was just suggesting one way that 2h can be less underpowered.

Truth be told, I've never played with a two-handed weapon warrior with some points into Block, not like I really felt it necessary since I would kill things with ease, to the point where dragons and giants only needed three to four swings, and that's without abusing the Smithing/Alchemy loophole, that's something that just ruins the gameplay.

Get the Shield of Ysgramor, and that bumps you up to 70% elemental protection. You can stack on Otar, the Lord, Breton, and so forth for 2 levels of magic defense. MR is counted before Elemental, so if you have 75% MR, then 75% say Resist Shock, it goes down to 1/8th of the original damage. All this is counted after Spell Absorbtion, so the 50% that gets through the Atronach Stone (that's chance of being absorbed, by the way, not total discount like Resist) you can get it down to a trickle. Not to say I can't make a nigh invulnerable unstoppable gamebreaker, i just don't like to play them. If this was an MMO, I'd be playing one of these meta builds with the strategies, and tactics that make my unarmored precicely nerfed ones actually viable...

That's pretty much the reason why the only MR I get is from the perk, and nothing else, otherwise it would be way too easy. With just that you still have a chance of dying, especially if you get swarmed with both mages and bandits, or worse, Falmer.
 
Truth be told, I've never played with a two-handed weapon warrior with some points into Block, not like I really felt it necessary since I would kill things with ease, to the point where dragons and giants only needed three to four swings, and that's without abusing the Smithing/Alchemy loophole, that's something that just ruins the gameplay.
While we're talking about the Block skill tree, I'm just referring to the Bash perks. With an unarmored character (Especially an assassin, like Dreadfall) it's actually fairly balanced, because while she can mash most everthing flat, she's also pretty squishy, so the stagger effect, and stealth are the only things that keep her alive. Also, she doesn't have Elemental protection, so she can still get Forswarmed. Finally, she has NO range, at all. She palls around with Jenassa for that, and never took the Dragonstone back, because she's not the Dragonborn. Most of the challenge is avoiding combat as much as possible, or backstabbing the greatest threat first. usually the mages, and archers. She's still pretty effective in the melee, but not unstoppable.

"I don't fight, I Kill." and, "Armor is for Milk Drinkers." ~Deadfall.
 

nolandman

A ranging, spell-sword Lich
The best formula seems to be 1 close, 1 ranged, and 1 defense/assistance skill. For instance, 1H, Destruction, and Alteration for a Spellblade. Followers seem to be best for opening chests, and hauling loot, but there's other tactics you can use with them. Like Tank&Spank, where you Command her to go forward, and keep them busy while you hit them from behind. (I like Mjoll with Volendrung, Rahgot, Sigdis' Amulet Fragment, and uthgerd's Plate Steel, but you can also give Jenassa Windshear, and the BoW, or Lydia the Targe.)

A lot of sneaky types forgo tank followers because they get them busted, but you can use it to your advantage with a Sniper, by sending them forward while you take pot-shots from the shadows. Or, if you have a dependable ranged follower, you can run in, and tank for them. Stack up Magic Resistance, especially Shock, and level up J'zrgo, it works great!
Very tight, and decent strategies my friend!
 
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