Spoiler Should Guilds be inherently Good / Evil ?

[feliciano182]

They have the Tenants. If you like, you can also play Assassin's creed. If you don't like the DBH, just don't play them. Why should All factions be good/ In fact, I defy you to find a single one in Skyrim that is completely good. Then again, there's a lot of grey in between the extremes.

Relax, I'm not arguing for the guilds to have varying degrees of morality, I simply asked a question.

 

[Psiberzerker]

I'm trying to answer it, but confusion seems to be getting in the way. I consider several of the Factions neutral on the Good/evil axis, like the Companions.

 

[Irish]

What do you all have to say about the Blades? Good, evil, or in between? I ask because the new RP character I'm building tends to lean towards the side of good rather than evil, and I'm trying to decide which guilds/factions she should join. So far, I've opted for the Bards College and possibly the Companions.

 

[Psiberzerker]

What do you all have to say about the Blades? Good, evil, or in between? I ask because the new RP character I'm building tends to lean towards the side of good rather than evil, and I'm trying to decide which guilds/factions she should join. So far, I've opted for the Bards College and possibly the Companions.

With the Blades, it's really a moral question, for the Character if you're role-playing. Hate the Empire, and Thalmor? Sign me up! Later when the big dilemma rears it's ugly head, it may be time to take a break, and consider it in character. Weigh all the pros, and cons, then chose a course of action. I don't consider them good, evil, nor neutral. They are Fanatics, so if you support their cause, then run with it. Or, just up to the point where their fanatacism goes too far, for you, or your character. For me, these agonizing decisions are what RP is all about, otherwise it's just a min/maxing kill-fest. In one save, I'd be for them, others, not so much, and still others, just up to a point...

 

[Irish]

With the Blades, it's really a moral question, for the Character if you're role-playing. Hate the Empire, and Thalmor? Sign me up! Later when the big dilemma rears it's ugly head, it may be time to take a break, and consider it in character. Weigh all the pros, and cons, then chose a course of action. I don't consider them good, evil, nor neutral. They are Fanatics, so if you support their cause, then run with it. Or, just up to the point where their fanatacism goes too far, for you, or your character. For me, these againizing decisions are what RP is all about, otherwise it's just a min/maxing kill-fest. In one save, I'd be for them, others, not so much, and still others, just up to a point...

After taking a look at UESP page on the Blades and thinking back to a side quest involving one particular dragon brought on by Delphine, I think I'll stay away. Thanks for your help!

 

[Uther Pundragon]

Well... good or evil, it is really a matter of perspective. Depending on how you or your character feels about it.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Figuring out if a group is good or evil is always a tricky business. A group that reveres death and combat, and even takes payment sometimes to do just that... Wait am I speaking of the companions or the dark brotherhood. I think you wan uses the D&D alignments to at least justify certain groupes for a roleplaying standpoint. But in the end its just culture and your own views. I see the dark brotherhood as outcasts who due. To an closed minded society look like a cult of cultthroats.. But they are just doing sacrifices like humans did with goats... they just us people... and money ... and ... crap yeah the Dark Brotherhood is evil. But at least they are personable. Looking at you thalmor... ok my rant typed on my phone is done lolz

 

[Moris]

Good and evil are such slippery concepts. On the extremes, they're easy to identify, but in the middle, where most humans reside, it's not so simple. Bethesda captures this, and I appreciate that.

I don't think that a character must choose an "alignment" and be compelled to stick with it. People change. They can be redeemed; they can be corrupted. In fact, an alignment change, such as it is, might well be the defining moment for a character.

Since everyone's concept of good and evil will differ somewhat, we will see each guild somewhat differently. This is a good thing. It suggests excellent writing by the creators.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Ye Olde Alignment system (Good/Evil Chaotic/Lawful, Gary Gygax) is an over simplified generality. A real character is more rich, and complex than a simple "always attacks" or "Fights only evil." I'm still not sure if I'm understanding the OQ correctly, but this is high Fantasy (It's got Orc, Tolkienesque High Fantasy) so ultimately yes, there should be at least one Evil faction, for the Good to fight against. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the Good to fight, and they can go back to Farming. That's what the Daedra are for, if you want to break it down to the most basic tropes.

However, I defy anyone to find a single 100% Good faction in Skyrim, or any of the other ES games. I'm not going to speak for Bethesda here, but I get the feeling they did that on purpose, especially here, where any given faction that starts off good eventually reveals the Dark Secret, or decides to issue an ultimatum that you may, or may not be comfortable with. Good requires evil, to contrast with, but Evil can exist for it's own sake. I see a lot of Black, and Grey morality here, which kind of lampshades how Fanaticism against evil often leads to Evil acts, such as the Vigilants of Stendarr declaring 0 tolerance, merciless in their war against Daedra, and Conjurers. (What's Stendarr the Aedra of again?) especially in such a combat oriented game. You have no option to feed the hungry, or heal the sick (Except by Death, "The only Cure") and you can kick down a Septim for the Beggars, but that loses it's novelty fairly quickly.

 

[feliciano182]

Well... good or evil, it is really a matter of perspective. Depending on how you or your character feels about it.

Nah, The Dark Brotherhood is just absolutely evil

 

[Cylos]

What do you all have to say about the Blades? Good, evil, or in between? I ask because the new RP character I'm building tends to lean towards the side of good rather than evil, and I'm trying to decide which guilds/factions she should join. So far, I've opted for the Bards College and possibly the Companions.

The Blades? Morally light grey, you could say that they're trying to protect Tamriel from the dragons, yet they're still killing sentient beings.
As a whole I believe Delphine is trying to make the Blades dragonslayers again, when they're simply now.
I like the fact that a majority of the guilds are morally grey, it allows for better roleplaying opportunities as you can veer either way with most of them, it adds to the opinion that a character can do what they like.

 

[Psiberzerker]

You know what's inhierently Evil? Genocide. The opinion that the only good anything is a dead one. Even if that thing is generally accepted as Evil. Dragons, are there no good Dragons? I guess that's a judgement call. What about Daedra? The VoS say that Stendarr's Mercy doesn't extend to Daedra, or those who consort with them. They said that to Elbereth, openly bearing Dawnbreaker as token of her status as Herald of Meridia, on a crusade to rid Skyrim of the Draugr. Does that sound familiar? Evil can do good to further Evil, but good cannot do Evil and remain Good. That disparity right there is why there can be Evil without Good.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Nah, The Dark Brotherhood is just absolutely evil

Is that so? If they stuck to the Tenants, and only did the Contracts which invoked the Black Sacrament, then look at all the ones you fulfilled in your duties. Who is truly without sin on that list? The Schoolmarm? The vampire hiding in a mill to feed off travelers. How about the man who betrayed his lover? Even the ultimate contract was symbolic of an Empire bent on continental domination, and willing to sell out entire races to Eugenic elves, decrying their own founder, and the greatest hero of Tamriel? If someone is willing to find "A Kiss Sweet Mother", all the stuff you need to set up the ritual, and wait for an answer, they're almost invariably wronged. That is in itself Evil, but toward evil. We don't seem to have a problem with killing if the enemy is bad enough outside the DBH, yet somehow they can be written off as evil because they have all the trappings. I'm not saying they aren't, but with that definition of Evil, who is truly Good?

 

[KattSand]

If you've used the mod for more respectful guards, you'll realize that there are a lot of voiced comments that you never hear but they are nevertheless available and made by the original voice actors. The mod unlocks them. Why Bethesda chose to make them basically unavailable is a mystery to me.

In fact, I read somewhere that Hrongar has quite a bit of extra dialog which is never made available because the storyline that was voiced (Balgruuf's death) was never implemented in the game. How much more voice acting we never hear is anyone's guess.

I'm going off topic here so sorry about that, but I've also read that there's city guard voice files regarding the death of Jarl Eleisif, apparently, Boethiah was supposed to give you another quest after claiming the ebony mail in which you kill Eleisif. Had this quest been left in the game and Eleisif had been killed, Erikur would have taken her place as jarl. Just a little trivia there Cicero actually also has several lines that are never heard in the game.

 

[Pijack]

I'm going off topic here so sorry about that, but I've also read that there's city guard voice files regarding the death of Jarl Eleisif, apparently, Boethiah was supposed to give you another quest after claiming the ebony mail in which you kill Eleisif. Had this quest been left in the game and Eleisif had been killed, Erikur would have taken her place as jarl. Just a little trivia there Cicero actually also has several lines that are never heard in the game.

Which ones? I mean Cicero's lines.

 

[KattSand]

Which ones? I mean Cicero's lines.

He has a lot of other lines when you have him as a follower that I, or anyone else I've asked, have never heard him use in game, for example when you murder someone, he's supposed to say either "You are an inspiration, do you know that?" or "It's like watching an artist"

And he's supposed to say something like "and another one for sithis" when killing an enemy, there a list somewhere with all his quotes but those were the ones I could remeber. I personally have never heard him say any of those, and when I was playing on xbox, he was my follower for about a 100 hours (not in game hours, real time) so I should have heard that stuff by now.

 

[Psiberzerker]

There's a lot of unused content in the game. (While we're getting off on a tangent.) The reward for the Infiltration quest was supposed to be the Spelltome: Spectral Arrow, which you can still get from Console codes. Pretty fun, it staggers like Impact, but but only ever does 30 damage, so it never gets all that overpowered. Still a good one for combos, like with Wall of Flames, or a Spellblade. I'm using it with Illusion, and Conjuration for the rare fights where there's only one enemy (The weakness to the Frenzy/Raise Dead combo.)

 

[KattSand]

There's a lot of unused content in the game. (While we're getting off on a tangent.) The reward for the Infiltration quest was supposed to be the Spelltome: Spectral Arrow, which you can still get from Console codes. Pretty fun, it staggers like Impact, but but only ever does 30 damage, so it never gets all that overpowered. Still a good one for combos, like with Wall of Flames, or a Spellblade. I'm using it with Illusion, and Conjuration for the rare fights where there's only one enemy (The weakness to the Frenzy/Raise Dead combo.)

Oh I did not know that, I'll definitely look into that

 

[feliciano182]

Evil can do good to further Evil, but good cannot do Evil and remain Good. That disparity right there is why there can be Evil without Good.

I would deffinitely contest this.............if I knew who the hell was Elbereth

Is that so? If they stuck to the Tenants, and only did the Contracts which invoked the Black Sacrament, then look at all the ones you fulfilled in your duties. Who is truly without sin on that list?

Narfi

Even if there were people without sin on that list, and on first glance there seems to be a lot, there's really no moral justification to killing people for money.

Once again, this does not reduce the awesomeness of The Dark Brotherhood.

Even the ultimate contract was symbolic of an Empire bent on continental domination, and willing to sell out entire races to Eugenic elves, decrying their own founder, and the greatest hero of Tamriel?

That's the best misinterpretation of Titus Mede II's actions I've ever read in my life !

I'm not saying they aren't, but with that definition of Evil, who is truly Good?

The particular thing about Skyrim is that it really is set in a sort-of-medieval setting, in which justice consisted mostly of death and life inmprisonment, if not maiming in some instances.

So regardless of who they are, and how they behave, the only reason why The Dark Brotherhood is illegal is because their activities interfere with the law in Tamriel, it sounds like I'm justifying their actions, but in reality it's difficult to morally reprehend a group of assasins when you have Jarls and generals that put death bounties on people as freely as Astrid and Nazir did.

 

[Psiberzerker]

I would deffinitely contest this.............if I knew who the hell was Elbereth

My Elven character.

Narfi

A side contract nobody did the Black Sacrament for. (Before you even meet the Night Mother, you have to accept that contract to advance the story.) There's other debatable ones, like one of the captives in the Abandoned Shack, but I always took those as signs of being corrupted by Astrid. My question was about Official contracts.

Even if there were people without sin on that list, and on first glance there seems to be a lot, there's really no moral justification to killing people for money.

I didn't say there was, but there's a Heirachy of Evil, compared to Necromancy, or opening rifts to Oblivion to try, and take over the world, that's pretty low on the list. Also, some people think more highly of it than others, they are an official, and integral part of the society.

Once again, this does not reduce the awesomeness of The Dark Brotherhood.

That's the best misinterpretation of Titus Mede II's actions I've ever read in my life !

Your morality, and interpretation isn't the official one, neither is mine. That's how I see it, and nothing I said about him is untrue.

The particular thing about Skyrim is that it really is set in a sort-of-medieval setting, in which justice consisted mostly of death and life inmprisonment, if not maiming in some instances.

So regardless of who they are, and how they behave, the only reason why The Dark Brotherhood is illegal is because their activities interfere with the law in Tamriel, it sounds like I'm justifying their actions, but in reality it's difficult to morally reprehend a group of assasins when you have Jarls and generals that put death bounties on people as freely as Astrid and Nazir did.

The DBH isn't illegal, except for the persecution by the Penitius Occulatus. Emperors can, and do use them, as have other people of high official stature. As you pointed out, they are a part of a brutal, and morally ambiguous world. In some ways, they save lives, because taking out the important man behing the War can prevent them from sending armies into battle, killing thousands. An assassin is a weapon, as much a tool as the dagger he, or she wields. If you say murder is wrong, in all cases, then that's one thing. However, if you accept that it's sometimes necessary, then sometimes you need to pay a professional to make sure it gets done. As for killing for money, every soldier in history has done that.