Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Can't help but agree with Sven when he says we're all getting way too hyped up over this.

Understatement of the year.

 

[Anouck]

Nice try. Irrelevant because that's not what he meant at the time he said it and she knew what he meant. You're not making sense this time around. If I had posted something like that or agreed with it...

But that's fine. It's over now and I think the point has been made. Good day.

I was talking about the Dominion.

Fourth Era Dominion to be exact.

That is what he meant, and that is how I interpreted it. You were the one who drew the wrong conclusion. So why exactly are you still using this as an argument? I predicted it though, that you would re use this argument at least a few more times.

Oh well. I hope you are not going to use it again. Especially not after I showed you Stigweards post which shows that I was right from the beginning.

No I was answering/commenting on a post that Sven and her were discussing. I find your Hypocrisy and your willingness to just brush aside racism in your own Faction yet criticize everyone else for doing the same appalling. And yet I'm not surprised at all by it.

...Really?

Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks do racist things. The Imperials forbid the Khajiit to enter the cities and the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer. That is both just as wrong. I, as an Imperial, are radically against the Imperials discriminating the Khajiit. That doesn't mean I can't be Imperial. It just means I agree with them, but just not on everything they do.
And you can be a Stormcloak and still think 'I don't like how the Stormcloaks discriminate the Dunmer'. That doesn't make you a bad Stormcloak. What frustrated me, is that you tried to justify it, or make it look better than it was by defending it. That is why we had this debate, Jeremy. Not because you are a Stormcloak, but because you defended their racism against the Dunmer. I hope you understand that now.

How can you make that statement after I posted this? I told Jeremy that both factions have there flaws, and joining them doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they say or do. Right now you're just making up arguments out of thin air. You claim I 'brush aside' racism in my own faction, but have absolutely no argument to back up that statement. In fact; I criticized the Imperials just a few hours ago. But I wonder if you even took the time to actually read that post. I hope you didn't read it. Because if you actually did, I really have no clue where on earth you got that argument from..

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

Here is an RP I came up with that might help you understand it: A female Dunmer nightblade had problems with the Thalmor and the Imperials just let it happened/ maybe she lost someone she loved to the Thalmor? Maybe they thought she was a secret Talos-worshiper? Who knows, I can "justify the racism" in windhelm by saying it might be better that way in the long run than to risk problems between the Thalmor and Dunmer on principle. Justifying without justifying, still hates what the Nords did to the Dunmer but admits that it will likely happen no matter how the war turns out.

Please stop bringing up RP's. That is of your own creation, is not canon, and does not effect the actual events of the game, or the lore itself.

Also, the Empire is not racist. I don't know where you're going with that, they literally accept all races into their ranks. You'll even find Altmer and Dunmer soldiers (while rare; <- Not because the Empire is racist).

they recruit locally. what is the most common race in Skyrim? Nord. Both sides recruit Nords because they are the native race. and the lore is not going encompass the results of the civil war anyways, so why care about lore or actual events or whatever? Why care about the Civil War at all if not for our own creations (our characters)?

 

[Anouck]

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

Here is an RP I came up with that might help you understand it: A female Dunmer nightblade had problems with the Thalmor and the Imperials just let it happened/ maybe she lost someone she loved to the Thalmor? Maybe they thought she was a secret Talos-worshiper? Who knows, I can "justify the racism" in windhelm by saying it might be better that way in the long run than to risk problems between the Thalmor and Dunmer on principle. Justifying without justifying, still hates what the Nords did to the Dunmer but admits that it will likely happen no matter how the war turns out.

Please stop bringing up RP's. That is of your own creation, is not canon, and does not effect the actual events of the game, or the lore itself.

Also, the Empire is not racist. I don't know where you're going with that, they literally accept all races into their ranks. You'll even find Altmer and Dunmer soldiers (while rare; <- Not because the Empire is racist).

they recruit locally. what is the most common race in Skyrim? Nord. Both sides recruit Nords because they are the native race. and the lore is not going encompass the results of the civil war anyways, so why care about lore or actual events or whatever? Why care about the Civil War at all if not for our own creations (our characters)?

Because lore and actual events are facts and therefor relevant arguments. Like someone on here said before: if the sky is blue and you roleplay it is green, you can't use that as an argument to win a debate on here. Just because you decided, on one of your characters, that you act like things are a little different than they actually are, doesn't mean it is a good argument.

If it would work that way, Jeremy, I could now say: I roleplay that mr Bean is the High King of Skyrim. Therefor the Stormcloaks are wrong, the Thalmor are wrong and the Aldmeri Dominion is wrong..

Honestly: I can't expect others to be convinced after using that as an argument..

 

[Pronged Pickle]

I can "justify racism" with a good RP. I can't justify hating one side because they do racist things without hating the other side fore the same stupid things.

Here is an RP I came up with that might help you understand it: A female Dunmer nightblade had problems with the Thalmor and the Imperials just let it happened/ maybe she lost someone she loved to the Thalmor? Maybe they thought she was a secret Talos-worshiper? Who knows, I can "justify the racism" in windhelm by saying it might be better that way in the long run than to risk problems between the Thalmor and Dunmer on principle. Justifying without justifying, still hates what the Nords did to the Dunmer but admits that it will likely happen no matter how the war turns out.

Please stop bringing up RP's. That is of your own creation, is not canon, and does not effect the actual events of the game, or the lore itself.

Also, the Empire is not racist. I don't know where you're going with that, they literally accept all races into their ranks. You'll even find Altmer and Dunmer soldiers (while rare; <- Not because the Empire is racist).

they recruit locally. what is the most common race in Skyrim? Nord. Both sides recruit Nords because they are the native race. and the lore is not going encompass the results of the civil war anyways, so why care about lore or actual events or whatever? Why care about the Civil War at all if not for our own creations (our characters)?

Um...alright? They recruit Nords. That's not an effective counter explaining how the Empire is racist, which is what I got from one of your previous posts when you said something along the lines of everyone, and every faction, in Tamriel are racist.

Also, I doubt that the Civil War will not be talked about in some book in TES: 6.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Please stop bringing up RP's. That is of your own creation, is not canon, and does not effect the actual events of the game, or the lore itself.

Also, the Empire is not racist. I don't know where you're going with that, they literally accept all races into their ranks. You'll even find Altmer and Dunmer soldiers (while rare; <- Not because the Empire is racist).

they recruit locally. what is the most common race in Skyrim? Nord. Both sides recruit Nords because they are the native race. and the lore is not going encompass the results of the civil war anyways, so why care about lore or actual events or whatever? Why care about the Civil War at all if not for our own creations (our characters)?

Also, I doubt that the Civil War will not be talked about in great detail in some book in TES: 6.

had to fix that because you must've forgotten some things. Lore might mention that it happened but likely not talk about who one because it would likely invalidate some choices. Both sides of the Civil War are thus both canon and non-canon, meaning the choice WE make as players means little, and should not matter in the slightest to any other player.

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

But that doesn't matter. Under interrogation the CIA has noted the FIRST thing mentioned by the person is usually the truth. Furthermore, there was no mention of it being specifically the Dominion. This also has absolutely nothing to about ratings.​

​

You're afraid because I caught you guys in a lie or at very least I know how you really feel. So stop trying to change the subject and make lame excuses for her. Ratings have nothing to do with it my friend. I was just astonished at the Hypocrisy coming from the Imperial side of the table after ganging up on a Stormcloak? who racism is somewhat justifiable.​

​

No I was answering/commenting on a post that Sven and her were discussing. I find your Hypocrisy and your willingness to just brush aside racism in your Faction yet criticize everyone else for doing the same.​

You have nothing, I can see that by bringing up CIA interrogations?

You're astonished by the hypocrisy of the Imperial side? You are the most hypocritical person in this thread, one moment pro stormcloak, next pro imperial, next pro Thalmor, then random rant about nothing, followed by back to Thalmor then the cycle continues.

Stop going on about something that isn't even the point. It was assumed he was talking about the Dominion, so get over yourself on that one. You're merely bringing up an argument, that has no standing. No basis.

Be like me arguing when you say Imperial side, to say you're racist. How dare you compare the entire race of Imperials, then posting a huge rant over it. That is not the case, you're merely arguing about nothing.

I have nothing? Apparently you haven't been paying attention to current events pal or anything I've written. If you are unwilling to acknowledge the very hate and racism amongst your own faction right in front of you, then the problem whatever it might be is with you. You seem like you tune out anything you don't want to hear. If it doesn't make the Empire look good then someone has no point.

Point is... you guys are wrong and you refuse to admit it. You hate High Elves, refuse to admit it. Like I said to her... I don't owe you a damn thing. The burden of proof is on you guys. You made this BIG DEAL over what some Stormcloak thinks, like you're done probably by now hundreds of times before. She slipped up and so did the rest of your crew and instead of correcting them, you're trying to cover it all up and condone discrimination because she's your friend.

*And you call yourselves Legionaries*​

​

Admit. Your. Mistake. and stop blaming me for being observant.​

 

[NENALATA]

You're astonished by the hypocrisy of the Imperial side? You are the most hypocritical person in this thread, one moment pro stormcloak, next pro imperial, next pro Thalmor, then random rant about nothing, followed by back to Thalmor then the cycle continues.

I want to answer this one personally. I try and see where everyone is coming from. Unlike the Imperials on this forum (for the most part) I am not going to go around pretending that my way of viewing things, my OPINION is better than everyone else's. You're always correcting people and telling them how to view whatever side. Who cares what your opinion is? Or mine. However, if I cannot see and understand where Imperials and Stormcloaks are coming from, then what do I know? How can you PRETEND to understand how other people feel unless you yourself can relate?

And sadly DM, this is where you fall short. I've already Declared for Thalmor and have been accepted by the Thalmor community. That is very well known. However the Thalmor in Skyrim are working with both sides. That's the difference.

DM, you may understand the Empire very well but you seem 'resistant' when it comes to actually understanding why the other factions are doing what they're doing. What are you guys so afraid of? That the Empire might actually be in the wrong?

The Empire isn't always right. If it were, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Also, instead of using personal attacks against me, try actually discussing the matter at hand. I'm not the one in the wrong here or trying to cover it up.

Just like those people in the cages at Helgen. Or all the people being oppressed so Titus Mede II can keep his throne. Stop thinking about yourselves and what's best for The Empire of Cyrodil and open your eyes to the plight of your people.

Even the Thalmor comment on how callous the Empire is to the suffering of it's citizens. In fact, there are numerous quotes (esp from Elenwen) that can very easily been seen as her having a positive opinion about the Empire or the Stormcloaks.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Can't help but agree with Sven when he says we're all getting way too hyped up over this.

Who is worked up? I am just trying to get what enjoyment I can out of a dying thread due to one side slaughtering the other.

 

[DrunkenMage]

How can you PRETEND to understand how other people feel unless you yourself can relate?

And sadly DM, this is where you fall short. I've already Declared for Thalmor and have been accepted by the Thalmor community. That is very well known. However the Thalmor in Skyrim are working with both sides. That's the difference.

DM, you may understand the Empire very well but you seem 'resistant' when it comes to actually understanding why the other factions are doing what they're doing. What are you guys so afraid of? That the Empire might actually be in the wrong?

This is quite interesting, especially since I had posted an extremely valid argument for the Stormcloaks not just moments before your rant of me not understanding the Stormcloak view?

Though I suppose you didn't notice the second thread. It is okay, I forgive you.

I'll provide some, since Stormcloaks on these forums lack the ability to even get a valid point across.

"Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true." - General Tullius

The Empire is in a state of decline, which has been occurring the past 200 years.

Cyrodiil erupted into violence in cities, the last being only twelve years ago. The Empire can barely maintain order in the heart of the Imperium (Where majority of the Legions are stationed), let alone protect other provinces completely.

Titus Mede II is assassinated without any known successor, which could fracture the Empire into conflict over the Ruby Throne. Motierre's intentions aren't made clear, he could be working for the Thalmor or he could be after his own ambitions.

Skyrim's independence will soften the blow.

Three Legions were completely wiped out during the Great War, with barely half remaining in the surviving Legions, Cyrodiil was left in ruins and problems kept occurring where many citizens fled to Skyrim of all places to get away from it. People find Skyrim safer than Cyrodiil.

"I guess down in Cyrodiil people have other things to worry about."

"I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil only to have it track me down again in Skyrim."

"It got bad back in Cyrodiil. The war with the Thalmor ruined... everything. I came to Skyrim looking for a better life."

The terms of the White-Gold Concordat, caused a rift between Hammerfell and Skyrim to the Empire. The White-Gold Concordat, while may seem like a good idea, allowed the Thalmor to infiltrate the Empire where they can wreck havoc and even bribe high nobles and officials and turn them to their side. The corruption of Imperial bureaucracy allows the Thalmor to simply take apart the Empire, piece by piece.

The Empire knew the threat the Thalmor has posed for about 150 years, yet did nothing. Penitus Oculatus believed the Thalmor wanted elven rule in Cyrodiil. The Blades warned the Empire the Dominion was a threat.

The free-reign given to the Thalmor by the White-Gold Concordat, allows them to stir up the provinces against Cyrodiil. It allows them to assassinate and corrupt those in their way.

Three province have gone independent, half of Skyrim are attempting to break away. High Rock would most likely follow, given that Imperial authority is weaker the further you get from Cyrodiil. High Rock is quite far away, the various Kings and Queens of High Rock may choose to abandon Cyrodiil.

Edit: I don't understand how Stormcloak supporters simply couldn't do that, instead of just denying everything in-game as 'Imperial bs'

You were saying? I don't have an understanding of the Stormcloak view...

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

How can you PRETEND to understand how other people feel unless you yourself can relate?​

​

And sadly DM, this is where you fall short. I've already Declared for Thalmor and have been accepted by the Thalmor community. That is very well known. However the Thalmor in Skyrim are working with both sides. That's the difference.​

​

DM, you may understand the Empire very well but you seem 'resistant' when it comes to actually understanding why the other factions are doing what they're doing. What are you guys so afraid of? That the Empire might actually be in the wrong?​

This is quite interesting, especially since I had posted an extremely valid argument for the Stormcloaks not just moments before your rant of me not understanding the Stormcloak view?

Though I suppose you didn't notice the second thread. It is okay, I forgive you.

Whatever. I'll take my leave now and let you guys get back to the Jousting match.

You were saying? I don't have an understanding of the Stormcloak view...

As it relates to the Empire yes. I'm not going to say you lack understanding because you do understand the Empire well. But this is not the same thing as someone who would willingly take the Stormcloak oath and trod a battle field to their possible death.

You understand how things relate on the international level, not the personal level. Which is exactly where Ulfric, Galmar and many of them are coming from. *The Heart*

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Please stop bringing up RP's. That is of your own creation, is not canon, and does not effect the actual events of the game, or the lore itself.

Also, the Empire is not racist. I don't know where you're going with that, they literally accept all races into their ranks. You'll even find Altmer and Dunmer soldiers (while rare; <- Not because the Empire is racist).

they recruit locally. what is the most common race in Skyrim? Nord. Both sides recruit Nords because they are the native race. and the lore is not going encompass the results of the civil war anyways, so why care about lore or actual events or whatever? Why care about the Civil War at all if not for our own creations (our characters)?

Because lore and actual events are facts and therefor relevant arguments. Like someone on here said before: if the sky is blue and you roleplay it is green, you can't use that as an argument to win a debate on here. Just because you decided, on one of your characters, that you act like things are a little different than they actually are, doesn't mean it is a good argument.

If it would work that way, Jeremy, I could now say: I roleplay that mr Bean is the High King of Skyrim. Therefor the Stormcloaks are wrong, the Thalmor are wrong and the Aldmeri Dominion is wrong..

Honestly: I can't expect others to be convinced after using that as an argument..

What I meant was our worlds are essentially non-canon/player-canon, so RP is often the best way to go for those worlds than using the official lore that is relevant mainly to the official canon that is set by bethesda and thus, out pcs are essentially original character that could happen to be in the universe.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Whatever. I'll take my leave now and let you guys get back to the Jousting match.

You're the only one here trying for a jousting match, you're arguing about something that wasn't even the case. You went on a large rant about me not knowing the Stormcloak side, I proved you wrong. You went on about Imperials racist against high elves, Anouck and the person who posted it, proved you wrong.

You claim the High Elves were enslaved by the Empire, I proved you wrong.

You said the Empire attacked the Dominion unprovoked, I proved you wrong.

Yet still we continue with these large posts that aren't backed up by anything. Need I continue?

At least bring arguments when you're going on about TES history... that isn't false and changed around?

 

[NENALATA]

NENALATA said: ↑

Whatever. I'll take my leave now and let you guys get back to the Jousting match.​

You're the only one here trying for a jousting match, you're arguing about something that wasn't even the case. You went on a large rant about me not knowing the Stormcloak side, I proved you wrong. You went on about Imperials racist against high elves, Anouck and the person who posted it, proved you wrong.

Now you're just trying to instigate something yourself. Esp when I'm trying to let this go, even though I deserve better having put up with all the times I had to let something go from listening to ya'll.

Pages on pages of Imperials, me and Jeremy all going back and forth. Just like a jousting match.

Furthermore, I haven't said you were right. You just posted a bunch of dialogue and crapped events together, many of which are unrelated and are missing context. That doesn't prove anything at all except you know how to twist dialogue around to reenforce an argument whose context doesn't really fit the source(s) of the information provided.

Anouck has not proved me wrong, you're being childish now. DM the big Imperial too big to admit he's wrong. Just like her. If anything, I've shown actual proof which verifiable proves that both of you are now lying or unwillingly to admit it when you make a mistake.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Now you're just trying to instigate something yourself.

Pages on pages of Imperials, me and Jeremy all going back and forth. Just like a jousting match.

Furthermore, I haven't said you were right. You just posted a bunch of dialogue and crapped events together, many of which are unrelated and are missing context. That doesn't prove anything at all except you know how to twist dialogue around to reenforce an argument whose context doesn't really fit the source(s) of the information provided.

Anouck has not proved me wrong, you're being childish now. DM the big Imperial too big to admit he's wrong. Just like her. If anything, I've shown actual proof which verifiable proves that both of you are now lying or unwillingly to admit it when you make a mistake.

I provided dialogue, history texts and even pocket guides. You twist things around to play the Thalmor as the victims.

"DM the big Imperial too big to admit he's wrong" That is how I know you rarely read much about any of my debates where I have been proven wrong. Cause wait... I admit I'm wrong when proven wrong! Shocking revelation, it was how I learned. I admit mistakes when mistakes are proven, I admit when I'm wrong fairly often when it is proven. You're just too blind to even acknowledge it.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Don't tell me what I meant please.

I haven't done that to you.

 

[NENALATA]

Oh whatever. You play the Imperials as the victims all the time yourself. Geez.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Oh whatever. You play the Imperials as the victims all the time yourself. Geez.

Lol, I've hardly called the Empire victims. I've stated on many occasions the Empire can be as cruel and fanatical as any other factions. I've called them corrupt and wrong in many areas.

You just read what you want out of my posts. You do it to everyone you debate with, just stated above.

 

[NENALATA]

Don't tell me what I meant please.

I haven't done that to you.

I have no problem with you. No disrespect intended but you are not the focus of this at all. Maybe that's not what you meant. But when you say something like, "I hate all High Elves" and then the other side agrees with it... well they're agreeing with what you just said. Doesn't matter what you meant and you know what? I believe you hate us. I believe it. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted it.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Don't tell me what I meant please.

I haven't done that to you.

I have no problem with you. No disrespect intended but you are not the focus of this at all. Maybe that's not what you meant. But when you say something like, "I hate all High Elves" and then the other side agrees with it... well they're agreeing with what you just said. Doesn't matter what you meant and you know what? I believe you hate us. I believe it. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted it.

You simply just create arguments, on nothing. If someone says something and means something else, you post a huge rant about it meaning another thing.

Stop twisting arguments to try make yourself valid.