Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
Well, I'm gone for awhile and I come back to that picture... what a completely fascinating turn of events.

I think we've collectively lost our minds, now that we've argued for so long. 455 pages, WHUT. Well, that or we were all slightly mad to begin with and the length of time just has exacerbated that. Hmm. I think I vote for the second one. :p

Basically:

images
 

KoKaineBliss

New Member
Well, I prefer Stormcloaks not because of the name, but because I truly believe that Skyrim belongs to the Nords. To be honest I hate the armor. I only like the Stormcloak Officer armor one...
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
Stormcloaks are right!
Idk about 100% right, or wrong but I'll take their side over the shady arse imperials anyday!
General Tulius phhhhht! He needs to take his pretty skirt wearin arse back to Cyrodiil with the rest of his sissy squad. <---- Not an imperial fan
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Civil War in Skyrim isn't Imperial vs Nord. It is Imperial, Nord, Breton, Dunmer & Altmer Legionnaires vs Xenophobic, non-nord hating rebels.

I find the choice for me rather easy, what the Thalmor want, I do the opposite. The Thalmor aid the Stormcloaks so I will aid the Legion in Skyrim, I don't feel right joining the Stormcloaks while probably everything is all Thalmor paid for, aiding them in harming the Empire.
 

thatwudbryan

yet another skyrim enthusiast
The Civil War in Skyrim isn't Imperial vs Nord. It is Imperial, Nord, Breton, Dunmer & Altmer Legionnaires vs Xenophobic, non-nord hating rebels.

I find the choice for me rather easy, what the Thalmor want, I do the opposite. The Thalmor aid the Stormcloaks so I will aid the Legion in Skyrim, I don't feel right joining the Stormcloaks while probably everything is all Thalmor paid for, aiding them in harming the Empire.
Do you now? WGC says otherwise. You make a good point though, almost makes it seem as if imperials have sort of a moral edge. Sadly, they don't :sadface:
 

Mookie

Active Member
The Civil War in Skyrim isn't Imperial vs Nord. It is Imperial, Nord, Breton, Dunmer & Altmer Legionnaires vs Xenophobic, non-nord hating rebels.

I find the choice for me rather easy, what the Thalmor want, I do the opposite. The Thalmor aid the Stormcloaks so I will aid the Legion in Skyrim, I don't feel right joining the Stormcloaks while probably everything is all Thalmor paid for, aiding them in harming the Empire.


How exactly do thalmor aid stormcloaks?
 

Mr.Self Destruct

Chosen Undead
How exactly do thalmor aid stormcloaks?

Well it's stated in a Thalmor Dossier that they would've halted Ulfric's execution as an end to the war would prove disadvantageous to their overall goal of continent-wide domination.

And it's crazy that this thread is still going on, as active as ever. :confused:
 

Mookie

Active Member
Well it's stated in a Thalmor Dossier that they would've halted Ulfric's execution as an end to the war would prove disadvantageous to their overall goal of continent-wide domination.

And it's crazy that this thread is still going on, as active as ever. :confused:


That isnt suport. Its like CIA rescuing a rival Taliban leader so that strife inside Talibans can continue. That doesnt mean that US likes or suports Taliban, nor does it mean that US want one side or the other to win.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Do you now? WGC says otherwise. You make a good point though, almost makes it seem as if imperials have sort of a moral edge. Sadly, they don't :sadface:

WGC doesn't give the Thalmor absolute power, they actually do things in secret while the Empire suspects they're up to something. They don't have proof, but the Thalmor to make an open arrest need proof to touch an Imperial Citizen, this is seen in Markarth where the Thalmor ask you to find proof of Talos worship. The WGC has been in place for nearly thirty years, the issues with the Thalmor are only recent with the rise of Ulfric Stormcloak, the treaty was poorly enforced and many Nords didn't even care, they all still had shrines to Talos.

"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down." - Alvor

The Empire knows they're up to something, the Stormcloaks don't even know they're doing what the Thalmor want.

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

It is interesting to see people hate on the Empire for killing three people and ordering your execution. When the Stormcloaks sack and burn two cities and kill more Nords than the Legion and Thalmor combined.

How exactly do thalmor aid stormcloaks?

They admit to it in their Dossier.

The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

While both sides victory will harm Thalmor plans, the Empire victory harms them in the future, Stormcloak victory only harms their agents within Skyrim who are behind enemy lines. Though they do aid the Stormcloaks in fighting the Empire, Windhelm is broke so someone is funding the rebellion. Windhelm's stockpiles are empty from Ulfric's useless management. His city has fallen into disrepair and is about as poor as Winterhold just it still has walls. The Stormcloak ideology also harms Skyrim with their no buying from Non-Nords harms merchants and business within Skyrim.

"But I do less business than I used to. The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord. If I wasn't married to Ulfberth, I'd be out of business." - Adrianne Avenicci

The Alchemist in Whiterun also doesn't get business due to her race.

The Talos preacher in Whiterun should be talking about the Stormcloaks. "Take away your homes, business and your lives" I didn't see the Elves doing that, only the Stormcloaks.
 

Mookie

Active Member
WGC doesn't give the Thalmor absolute power, they actually do things in secret while the Empire suspects they're up to something. They don't have proof, but the Thalmor to make an open arrest need proof to touch an Imperial Citizen, this is seen in Markarth where the Thalmor ask you to find proof of Talos worship. The WGC has been in place for nearly thirty years, the issues with the Thalmor are only recent with the rise of Ulfric Stormcloak, the treaty was poorly enforced and many Nords didn't even care, they all still had shrines to Talos.

"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down." - Alvor

The Empire knows they're up to something, the Stormcloaks don't even know they're doing what the Thalmor want.

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

It is interesting to see people hate on the Empire for killing three people and ordering your execution. When the Stormcloaks sack and burn two cities and kill more Nords than the Legion and Thalmor combined.



They admit to it in their Dossier.

The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

While both sides victory will harm Thalmor plans, the Empire victory harms them in the future, Stormcloak victory only harms their agents within Skyrim who are behind enemy lines. Though they do aid the Stormcloaks in fighting the Empire, Windhelm is broke so someone is funding the rebellion. Windhelm's stockpiles are empty from Ulfric's useless management. His city has fallen into disrepair and is about as poor as Winterhold just it still has walls. The Stormcloak ideology also harms Skyrim with their no buying from Non-Nords harms merchants and business within Skyrim.


How do you know whose victory harms them in future? Are you Olava or whatever her name was so you see the future ? That is clearly your personal opinion. Wilhelm is broke and nords dont buy from non-nords? Where a hell did you see that? If you say that only because Nords dont buy from that shop in gray quarter what do you have to say about them buying it from the marketplace from a high elf?

Indirect aid can be many things. I am sure US gives indirect aid to some drug cartels or terrorist because they keep those drug cartels and terror networks in dissaray without clear leadership.

And dont pull gray quarter issue.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
How do you know whose victory harms them in future? Are you Olava or whatever her name was so you see the future ? That is clearly your personal opinion. Wilhelm is broke and nords dont buy from non-nords? Where a hell did you see that? If you say that only because Nords dont buy from that shop in gray quarter what do you have to say about them buying it from the marketplace from a high elf?

Indirect aid can be many things. I am sure US gives indirect aid to some drug cartels or terrorist because they keep those drug cartels and terror networks in dissaray without clear leadership.

And dont pull gray quarter issue.

The Empire has a large army sitting on the Thalmor border, the Stormcloaks can't reach the Aldmeri Dominion without invading Cyrodiil and they won't mess with Cyrodiil. The only other option is by boat which will be suicide since reinforcements and supplies will take months to reach them. The Empire draws soldiers from the provinces, cutting out Skyrim splits the Empire and the flow of soldiers to maintain an army. Without the Nords the Great War would of been lost had it not been for the reinforcement legions from Skyrim who linked up with Titus Mede II and retook the Imperial City. Windhelm is bankrupt you would know this from Free-Winter once he becomes Jarl he mentions that Windhelm's stockpiles are Empty from Ulfric's poor leadership. The no buying from non-nords is seen also.

"The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord."

The Alchemist within Whiterun also talks about closing because she gets no business due to her race, she has lived in Skyrim for about 20 years and now talks about closing and going back to Cyrodiil since she isn't getting any money because the Stormcloaks say she will poison them due to her race.
 

Mookie

Active Member
The Empire has a large army sitting on the Thalmor border, the Stormcloaks can't reach the Aldmeri Dominion without invading Cyrodiil and they won't mess with Cyrodiil. The only other option is by boat which will be suicide since reinforcements and supplies will take months to reach them. The Empire draws soldiers from the provinces, cutting out Skyrim splits the Empire and the flow of soldiers to maintain an army. Without the Nords the Great War would of been lost had it not been for the reinforcement legions from Skyrim who linked up with Titus Mede II and retook the Imperial City. Windhelm is bankrupt you would know this from Free-Winter once he becomes Jarl he mentions that Windhelm's stockpiles are Empty from Ulfric's poor leadership. The no buying from non-nords is seen also.

"The Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord."

The Alchemist within Whiterun also talks about closing because she gets no business due to her race, she has lived in Skyrim for about 20 years and now talks about closing and going back to Cyrodiil since she isn't getting any money because the Stormcloaks say she will poison them due to her race.


Dont like and not buying isnt the same

Why do they need to reach AD? Defending is enough.
How does it split the empire?
If empire had troops to line the borders they would have to send to Skyrim.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Dont like and not buying isnt the same

Why do they need to reach AD? Defending is enough.
How does it split the empire?
If empire had troops to line the borders they would have to send to Skyrim.

Have you seen a map of Tamriel? The Empire is Cyrodiil, Skyrim & High Rock. Skyrim connects Cyrodiil to High Rock, it is the middle of the Empire.

The Stormcloaks don't plan on defending, they plan on taking their entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion.

"First we'll kick the Thalmor and their bloody Imperial puppets out of the country. Then we'll rebuild Skyrim into the land she once was. When we are done with that, we will take our army to the Dominion, and show those pointy-eared bastards not every man is fit to be their slave."

The Empire's soldiers are from the provinces, if Skyrim leaves the Empire hundreds of Nords will be without homes, so they will probably return home to their families since Skyrim has left. They wouldn't of sent to Skyrim, the Aldmeri Dominion border is very large, since they have extended their defenses which were along Valenwood to include Elsweyr since the Thalmor attacked from Elsweyr in the Great War.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

Also the Gray Quarter isn't a small issue, it's actually a prime example of what is to come. The 'Gray Quarter' was actually the Snow Quarter until it was renamed the Gray Quarter as an insult since Ulfric isn't as kind as his father and his fathers were.

'There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.' - Scourge of the Gray Quarter
 

Tyer032392

Active Member
Dont like and not buying isnt the same

Actually, it is the same. If you don't like a person, you are likely to make a decision to not buy their goods even if they are the best. That is true with the Nords.

Why do they need to reach AD? Defending is enough.

Not it is not. In order to survive, you need to cut off the head of the snake itself. This is even stated by Galmor when he states that "When the time is right, we will show those pointy eared bastards that not all men are fit to be slaves". And in order to do this, the Royal Army of Skyrim would have to march through the Empire sparking a war that would destroy the Kingdom of Skyrim. Remember, the Legionary soldiers you fought in Skyrim are Auxiliary Legionaries, not the true legionary soldiers.

How does it split the empire?

The Empire originated in Skyrim, which is why more nords are fighting for the Empire rather than for Skyrim. Because, unlike their idiot keenmen, they know that a Skyrim without an Empire and vice versa is against both of their souls.

If empire had troops to line the borders they would have to send to Skyrim.

Which is the last thing the Empire wants to do. You do realize that the Aldmeri army is larger than the Imperial army, correct?
 

Mookie

Active Member
Have you seen a map of Tamriel? The Empire is Cyrodiil, Skyrim & High Rock. Skyrim connects Cyrodiil to High Rock, it is the middle of the Empire.

The Stormcloaks don't plan on defending, they plan on taking their entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion.

"First we'll kick the Thalmor and their bloody Imperial puppets out of the country. Then we'll rebuild Skyrim into the land she once was. When we are done with that, we will take our army to the Dominion, and show those pointy-eared bastards not every man is fit to be their slave."

The Empire's soldiers are from the provinces, if Skyrim leaves the Empire hundreds of Nords will be without homes, so they will probably return home to their families since Skyrim has left. They wouldn't of sent to Skyrim, the Aldmeri Dominion border is very large, since they have extended their defenses which were along Valenwood to include Elsweyr since the Thalmor attacked from Elsweyr in the Great War.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

Also the Gray Quarter isn't a small issue, it's actually a prime example of what is to come. The 'Gray Quarter' was actually the Snow Quarter until it was renamed the Gray Quarter as an insult since Ulfric isn't as kind as his father and his fathers were.

'There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.' - Scourge of the Gray Quarter
Have you seen a map of Tamriel? The Empire is Cyrodiil, Skyrim & High Rock. Skyrim connects Cyrodiil to High Rock, it is the middle of the Empire.

The Stormcloaks don't plan on defending, they plan on taking their entire army to the Aldmeri Dominion.

"First we'll kick the Thalmor and their bloody Imperial puppets out of the country. Then we'll rebuild Skyrim into the land she once was. When we are done with that, we will take our army to the Dominion, and show those pointy-eared bastards not every man is fit to be their slave."

The Empire's soldiers are from the provinces, if Skyrim leaves the Empire hundreds of Nords will be without homes, so they will probably return home to their families since Skyrim has left. They wouldn't of sent to Skyrim, the Aldmeri Dominion border is very large, since they have extended their defenses which were along Valenwood to include Elsweyr since the Thalmor attacked from Elsweyr in the Great War.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

Also the Gray Quarter isn't a small issue, it's actually a prime example of what is to come. The 'Gray Quarter' was actually the Snow Quarter until it was renamed the Gray Quarter as an insult since Ulfric isn't as kind as his father and his fathers were.

'There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.' - Scourge of the Gray Quarter



They wont be without homes, they would go back home and leave the imperial army.
The empire being all about protecting Cyrodil and not giving a piss about any other province is enough reason to leave.

Where do you propose to settle the dark elves? Walls around city dont really allow for expansion, you can only place that much buildings inside walls. What do you propose? Force them out and build their homes outside the protection of city walls? Or force the nords out? Or destroy larger houses to build more little dwellings?
What is your solution to that problem?
 

Mookie

Active Member
Actually, it is the same. If you don't like a person, you are likely to make a decision to not buy their goods even if they are the best. That is true with the Nords.



Not it is not. In order to survive, you need to cut off the head of the snake itself. This is even stated by Galmor when he states that "When the time is right, we will show those pointy eared bastards that not all men are fit to be slaves". And in order to do this, the Royal Army of Skyrim would have to march through the Empire sparking a war that would destroy the Kingdom of Skyrim. Remember, the Legionary soldiers you fought in Skyrim are Auxiliary Legionaries, not the true legionary soldiers.



The Empire originated in Skyrim, which is why more nords are fighting for the Empire rather than for Skyrim. Because, unlike their idiot keenmen, they know that a Skyrim without an Empire and vice versa is against both of their souls.



Which is the last thing the Empire wants to do. You do realize that the Aldmeri army is larger than the Imperial army, correct?


Still not liking and not buying at all is not the same. What do you propose? That ulfric goes around with a whip and slap everyone who doesnt like buying from dark elves untill they start liking them? Ulfric isnt only racist guy. Everyone is.

If thalmor invade they need to go trough other human lands. The Nords wont be allone!
Empire used nords as meatshield to bear the brunt of expansion. It is a mere shell of what it used to be. Now it is time for itself to run its own course and die. That way a new empire can be forged.
Staying in one place never brought anyone any good.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
They wont be without homes, they would go back home and leave the imperial army.
The empire being all about protecting Cyrodil and not giving a piss about any other province is enough reason to leave.

Where do you propose to settle the dark elves? Walls around city dont really allow for expansion, you can only place that much buildings inside walls. What do you propose? Force them out and build their homes outside the protection of city walls? Or force the nords out? Or destroy larger houses to build more little dwellings?
What is your solution to that problem?

The Nords that remain in the Legion, since many hold their oaths scared. The ones who believe their word means something and not easily broken will be without homes since the Legion which has been in Skyrim for hundreds of years won't be able to return since the Stormcloaks have taken power. Those who do leave weaken the Imperial defenses.

The Empire is all about protecting Cyrodiil? The Empire is Skyrim, it is High Rock. Cyrodiil is the seat of the Empire but it isn't all of the Empire. Cyrodiil was the front lines of a war, Skyrim was untouched. Hammerfell while it was a part of the Empire were also front lines in the Great War, the Legion was there fighting also. Cyrodiil is connected by two Aldmeri Dominion provinces. Where would you place your army? In Cyrodiil where the fighting will be or in Skyrim where it was untouched completely. Skyrim is protected due to geography.

mappagigante.jpg


Actually the issues with the Dark Elves isn't lack of housing it is actually their treatment. They're treated like lesser beings. Their living area was renamed the Gray Quarter as an insult. It was the Snow Quarter until I'm guessing when Ulfric gained power it was renamed officially as the Gray Quarter. That is like changing a city suburb to something insulting to a certain group who lives there. Though tell me in what way is Skyrim threatened? Considering the Empire has been sending what they can to assist in Skyrim, they sent Tullius, several Legates to aid Rikke and help the Auxiliary garrisons to combat this uprising. Then you have this;

"Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people."

Oh poor Skyrim not getting cared about? The rebellion happened nearly thirty years after the WGC, if it happened earlier then yeah sure the Empire would probably be able to deal with it. Except they're spread thin, the Empire's focus is on the Aldmeri Dominion and the next Great War. The Stormcloak rebellion came out of the blue, no one was expecting the killing of the High King. Cyrodiil sends what reinforcements it can, but the focus is the next Great War. Ulfric's capture was supposed to be easy, except the Thalmor were helping him. Hadvar mentions that when ever they were about to capture Ulfric somehow he knew ahead of plan and managed to elude capture until Tullius was sent to deal with it.
 
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