Grogmar Ghrobash
'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
I've never even seen this myself, nor can I find anywhere to support this assertion. If you could post a link...
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
I've never even seen this myself, nor can I find anywhere to support this assertion. If you could post a link...
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
In several characters I have never once had these happen to me, so it can't happen for every person. In all my characters either supporting empire or stormcloaks, I never heard of a massacre in the peace talks.
Doctor Langstrom
I want to be FEARED!
azali100
Active Member
Basically the further out you get from the Imperial capital the more local laws and customs take over. In other words each of the provinces have a certain degree of autonomy but ultimately pay tribute to, and submit to the laws of the Emperor. They also provide supplies, troops, etc. Pretty much like real life Empires. Positions like High King, are only provincial so they are still under the Emperor and restricted by whatever laws and taxes he has in place.
Moris
...
I know how the federal system works in the US. I worked for a lawyer for a while when I lived there. I majored in Political Science at an American university. LOL. (I admit, I've forgotten a bunch of stuff since then, and Canadian law is quite different, so I don't claim to be an expert or right about everything. But I know the basics.)
You do not dismiss the federal government's role in an atrocity (or merely an unpleasantness) merely because the laws and administration directly involved are under state control. We criticize Obama for all kinds of things which are arguably under state control.
Of course, the US is a federated system. I'd argue that the Empire is more of a confederated system (more like the original 13 colonies) as it doesn't seem nearly as fully integrated. Heck, a Solitude guard won't arrest you for crimes in Eastmarch. This is distinct from what you see in Cyrodiil, where your crimes followed you from one city to the next.
Moris
...
In any case, my point was that if you support the Imperials, the poor conditions that I listed do not change.
If you're saying that this is because the Imperials do not, in fact, rule Skyrim, and therefore do not have any influence on these things, that's fine. It doesn't change the point I'm making.
The poor conditions prior to or following the CW are not a good reason to support either side, as they don't change.
Except the Dunmer in Windhelm, (that's going to be slow happening -- particularly if the Imperials have so little influence, as you all say). And a couple of disgruntled shopkeepers in Whiterun.
If you're saying that this is because the Imperials do not, in fact, rule Skyrim, and therefore do not have any influence on these things, that's fine. It doesn't change the point I'm making.
The poor conditions prior to or following the CW are not a good reason to support either side, as they don't change.
Except the Dunmer in Windhelm, (that's going to be slow happening -- particularly if the Imperials have so little influence, as you all say). And a couple of disgruntled shopkeepers in Whiterun.
Mr.Self Destruct
Chosen Undead
Skyrim is under Imperial jurisdiction and has been for the better part of eras.
Grogmar Ghrobash
'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
I'm not sure what your point was, I agreed with DrunkenMage and then you posted how already existing conditions were still there. It made it seem like you were trying to say that because Skyrim is under the Empires reign that it was their fault, I was only trying point out the differences between provinces and the Empire.
Moris
...
Skyrim:Season Unending - UESPWiki
Scroll down to the charts that indicate the stages, phase two.
It does depend on playthrough. I suppose if you swap a minor hold instead, you may not bring up the massacre compensation because they have the same number of points.
Moris
...
That is, indeed, what I have been saying.
Moris
...
That is my point. Right there.
The conditions of life in Skyrim are not a good reason to support the Empire.
Except for Dunmer in Windhelm and a pair of shopkeepers in Whiterun.
Nothing else changes. Or will change.
Unless you're a Heimskr fan...
Grogmar Ghrobash
'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
It says Imperials pay compensation for a massacre only if one occurs, meaning it doesn't happen for everyone.
Ozan
the Magnificent Bastard
Through the greedy fingers, Khajiit feels they are more than deserving to part from their precious coin.
This may be a good resolution although it probably has issues which need to be fixed(by you guys and gals). Skyrim deserves to be ruled by Nords only. However the Nords get Imperial protection which means this. Skyrim must allow legions and Imperial soldiers to travel through Skyrim. They also must send soldiers to help the Empire in times of war or crisis and pay an annual tribute. All this in exchange for Imperial protection of Skyrim from foreign powers. That way the Empire and Skyrim aren't weakened by ongoing war. The Thalmor cannot divide and conquer because they are allies and the Nords are able to rule themselves.
Moris
...
I think that basically is the deal (plus Imperial law applies in matters of high treason).
I believe the Stormcloak position to be this:
Why should we pay tribute (that we can barely afford) or provide soldiers for the defense of Cyrodiil when the Empire isn't holding up its end of the bargain to protect us against foreign powers? I know they aren't keeping the foreign powers out because, look, there's a Thalmor agent taking a Nord prisoner to be tortured or killed for doing something which none of us believes is a crime.
Grogmar Ghrobash
'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
No one had said it was though, DrunkenMage had only pointed out how prosperous Skyrim appears to be under the Empire.
Moris
...
One could infer from the posts about the shopkeepers in Whiterun and how awful people felt in their playthrough as SC that the point was this was a good reason to support the Imperials. Particularly, since this point was brought up in a thread entitled, "Imperials or Stormcloaks what [sic] one?"
Mr.Self Destruct
Chosen Undead
This will be my leave from this thread for some time, it's taking up to much time for me at the moment and has proven to be a source for much procrastination. I may return after some time, as I have done before.
What it comes down to is which of the factions are the lesser of evils, and given what we know about Ulfric, it's him. As Dagmar, others and myself have conveyed over the better part of a year now what it boils down to is that Ulfric is not the lesser of evils. Through his character, many malicious qualities show. And the heated discussions we've had here concerning the racism in Windhelm and the Markarth Incident, among many other things have all served to show Ulfric's true character.
The Empire has always done it's provinces well, though there have been periods of strife and crisis the Empire has endured. It is for this reason that Balgruuf is torn in his decision, for he remembers what the Empire's done for Skyrim and it's people and how Mede fought until the bitter end during the Great War. Though it's had it's crimes, the Empire's good qualities shine out the clearer in the end. Perhaps one would have to play Oblivion or any other previous Elder Scrolls title to fully realize this, but I digress, in the end, the Empire wants what's best for it's people. That is why the concordant was signed, and that's why it was denied prior to the war.
My main issue with Ulfric is not the racism, nor the debatable atrocities which took place during the Markarth Incident. My main qualm with the man is how he does not fight the real threat at hand, but the people who protected Skyrim for eras. Who is to refute this? Ulfric has the manpower and the drive to take the fight to the Thalmor occupying Skyrim, yet he chooses to wage war against the Empire. Yes, he states at the end of his campaign that the Thalmor will be driven from Tamriel. But how much blood had been spilled by than? How much chaos and destruction caused?
Pockets of resistance; not unlike the Stormcloaks, successfully drove the Thalmor from Hammerfell following the Great War. Proving that the Thalmor are not as powerful as they seem, and that the determined work of individuals can defeat them. Ulfric has the strength, the influence, the will to lead an incursion against the Thalmor as their grip on Skyrim is but less than half of what it was on Hammerfell. Yet he chooses to murder the High King, forcing the Empire's hand into the Civil War that would engulf Skyrim and ravage both sides of the battlefield, while the Thalmor sit comfortably enjoying the infighting.
In the end, both sides want to be free of the Thalmor. So why do they fight each other?
What it comes down to is which of the factions are the lesser of evils, and given what we know about Ulfric, it's him. As Dagmar, others and myself have conveyed over the better part of a year now what it boils down to is that Ulfric is not the lesser of evils. Through his character, many malicious qualities show. And the heated discussions we've had here concerning the racism in Windhelm and the Markarth Incident, among many other things have all served to show Ulfric's true character.
The Empire has always done it's provinces well, though there have been periods of strife and crisis the Empire has endured. It is for this reason that Balgruuf is torn in his decision, for he remembers what the Empire's done for Skyrim and it's people and how Mede fought until the bitter end during the Great War. Though it's had it's crimes, the Empire's good qualities shine out the clearer in the end. Perhaps one would have to play Oblivion or any other previous Elder Scrolls title to fully realize this, but I digress, in the end, the Empire wants what's best for it's people. That is why the concordant was signed, and that's why it was denied prior to the war.
My main issue with Ulfric is not the racism, nor the debatable atrocities which took place during the Markarth Incident. My main qualm with the man is how he does not fight the real threat at hand, but the people who protected Skyrim for eras. Who is to refute this? Ulfric has the manpower and the drive to take the fight to the Thalmor occupying Skyrim, yet he chooses to wage war against the Empire. Yes, he states at the end of his campaign that the Thalmor will be driven from Tamriel. But how much blood had been spilled by than? How much chaos and destruction caused?
Pockets of resistance; not unlike the Stormcloaks, successfully drove the Thalmor from Hammerfell following the Great War. Proving that the Thalmor are not as powerful as they seem, and that the determined work of individuals can defeat them. Ulfric has the strength, the influence, the will to lead an incursion against the Thalmor as their grip on Skyrim is but less than half of what it was on Hammerfell. Yet he chooses to murder the High King, forcing the Empire's hand into the Civil War that would engulf Skyrim and ravage both sides of the battlefield, while the Thalmor sit comfortably enjoying the infighting.
In the end, both sides want to be free of the Thalmor. So why do they fight each other?
Grogmar Ghrobash
'Tis better to be alone, then of bad company.
People only started being prosecuted when Ulfric pointed out they were worshiping Talos. And when has it ever been said that Skyrim was too poor to pay tribute to the Empire? The Thalmor are also free to roam anywhere among the Empire due to the conditions of the W.G.C. So why would they be trying to keep them out?
Dagmar
Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
The Reach was already retaken when Ulfric had all non-combatants who didn't fight alongside his militia executed. There's nothing in the lore indicating he was acting under anyone's orders and the clear implication of the Bear of Markarth was that his actions were a reflection of his attitude about those who didn't fight alongside his men.
The Bear of Markarth said:
