Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Ozan]

When Ozan referred to Khajiit being raised, he meant himself.

Though, in truth the Thalmor was not seen so frequently, not until left the deserts. Ozan was told never to trust an Elf as the Elf has always been cruel and deceitful. Well, Bosmer and Dunmer...

Regardless, the Empire is a mace. Blunt, powerful, but slow. If one knows gow to avoid it, the mace is useless. The Empire does not change. A surprise attack from a growing power is absolute neglect. Lack of observation left many dead, military and civilian.

Why didn't they try to stop losing power and land? Because some in Valenwood wanted to leave? It was taken and forgotten? Elsweyr joined freely, the Colovian allowed this? Didn't even look into it?

The Empire is lazy. This is sinful, but not only would the Colovian suffer for it. The Nord, the Breton, and the Imperial... would the Colovian have them suffer as well?

A good number of Nord thinks so.

 

[azali100]

I will continue to use that video to demonstrate my point regards to what you think. If you think that the video shows ignorance then perhaps you might want to spend some time proving the video creator wrong by releasing your version? Funny because I have yet seen anyone do that. Perhaps the information on the video is actually relevant, and strong that even the staunch Empire lovers couldn't rebuttal the video.

That probably has more to do with the fact that people have more important things to do with their time than sit down and argue against a 10 minute video on a fictional political issue part by part.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

I will continue to use that video to demonstrate my point regards to what you think. If you think that the video shows ignorance then perhaps you might want to spend some time proving the video creator wrong by releasing your version? Funny because I have yet seen anyone do that. Perhaps the information on the video is actually relevant, and strong that even the staunch Empire lovers couldn't rebuttal the video.

Perhaps the information on the video is so hysterically wrong no one wants to have to waste time telling them what they don't want to hear.

 

[MrDSL]

That probably has more to do with the fact that people have more important things to do with their time than sit down and argue against a 10 minute video on a fictional political issue part by part.

After scanning this topic and what is probably on every other skyrim forum it seems to me plenty of people have plenty of time to argue about a fictional political issue part by part.

 

[Dagmar]

If you think that the video shows ignorance then perhaps you might want to spend some time proving the video creator wrong by releasing your version? Funny because I have yet seen anyone do that.

The fact that you would imply the necessity of a counter-video is illustrative of your complete failure to engage logic in the discussion. Presenting ignorant premises based on false information unsupported and/or contradicted by the lore and game content in video format doesn't somehow magically make them valid. You've actually regurgitated the entirety of the assertions in the video throughout this thread and, for the most part, they've been corrected and soundly refuted at every turn. It only underscores how impotent it is to take a position that posting that video is persuasive to anyone who actually knows what they're talking about with regards to the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe and Skyrim. If it was flawed, ignorant and false in written form it's no less so in the form of a video.

 

[Moris]

Grogmar Ghrobash, your post was detailed and informative. But I still get the impression that your statements lack the full force of conviction - or at least, I am having trouble being persuaded. Perhaps you could clarify some things for me.

Ozan said: ↑

Elsweyr was fooled, the Colovian not even trying to deny it..​

The Empire isn't responsible in disproving claims on phenomenons, that they themselves wouldn't be able to even begin to understand. No one knows how the two moons vanished, or if the Thalmor had truly even been the ones to bring them back.

The Empire may not be responsible for disproving claims, but not to grasp the possible consequences of failing to even dispute it looks like profound neglect to me. Or should we imagine the Imperial council discussing the matter and concluding, "Ah, well, if we say nothing, Elsweyr may fall under the sway of the Aldmeri. But let us not waste time with this matter. After all, it's not our responsibility"?

Ozan said: ↑

Orsinium was disolved for convenience.​

The Empire had nothing to do with this. It was all Hammerfell and High Rocks doing.

Once again. It's not the Empire's responsibility. The Empire only acts out of a very stringent and legalistic view, only acts when it absolutely and utterly must? Regardless of the consequences?

Ozan said: ↑

The Argonian conquered Morrowind, THE FILTHY ARGONIAN, because the Empire stops caring.​

Too many devastations have happened in Morrowind in such a short time that it made it very easy for the Argonians to invade. At the time that Morrowind had been invaded, the Empire hadn't even crowned an Emperor yet since the Oblivion Crisis, so they couldn't possibly have been able to do anything.

So you do not dispute the claim that at certain critical moments in the Empire's history, it has been too weak to do anything? And the rest of the time, you are saying, it has not seen the point of doing anything?

Ozan said: ↑

Why does the Colovian care about Skyrim? They gave away everything else, what makes Skyrim special?​

They're in Skyrim to capture and punish Ulfric for treason.

The question that arises in my mind, then, is: Why are they in Skyrim to put down a "sideshow" little rebellion when they have historically shown so little inclination toward intervention?

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Regardless, the Empire is a mace. Blunt, powerful, but slow. If oneknows gow to avoid it, the mace is useless. The Empire does not change. A surprise attack from a growing power is absolute neglect. Lack of observation left many dead, military and civilian.

A surprise attack is just that, a surprise attack. Even the most perceptive and aware can be susceptible to surprise attacks. Though war was certainly upon them, and the Empire prepared for the coming conflict, the day the Thalmor swept into Cyrodiil began as any other for the citizens of the Empire. The Thalmor came without warning, and this wasn't a time when scouts and border-patrols could radio in news and information.

Why didn't they try to stop losing power and land?

Because it's hard, and they didn't lose land out of neglect or lack of interest. Mede inherited a weakened and crippled Empire and did what he could to try and make things better.

Because some in Valenwood wanted to leave? It was taken and forgotten? Elsweyr joined freely, the Colovian allowed this? Didn't even look into it?

Elsewyr was never an Imperial province, and was a confederacy strife with internal conflict and crisis for many years before the Great War. The Empire definitely took note to both of the provinces becoming client states of the Dominion, as it was a reason for much of the tension which eventually exploded into war. However, Elsewyr was an independent state and though the Empire provided aid and relief to it in the past it was free to make it's own decisions.

Valenwood fell to violent coups, it wasn't as if the Thalmor army marched upon it and conquered the province. After a period of internal strife and conflict among Valenwood's government the Thalmor seized control and Valenwood left the Empire to become a client state.

 

[Raijin]

Perhaps the information on the video is so hysterically wrong no one wants to have to waste time telling them what they don't want to hear.

What you just told me is a clear definition of laziness. If the video was so hysterically wrong why don't you challenge the video creator by making a video response to point out errors and correct them with facts?

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

What you just told me is a clear definition of laziness. If the video was so hysterically wrong why don't you challenge the video creator by making a video response to point out errors and correct them with facts?

What is lazy is linking a video to argue for you, it goes to show how you yourself are unable to back up your own claims without using somebody else to get across the points you can't. As if that wasn't enough, you begin to call other people lazy for it.

I'm not going to watch a ten minute video of somebody else's uneducated and fallacious opinion when I have enough of that right here.

 

[Raijin]

What is lazy is linking a video to argue for you, it goes to show how you yourself are unable to back up your own claims without using somebody else to get across the points you can't. As if that wasn't enough, you begin to call other people lazy for it.

I'm not going to watch a ten minute video of somebody else's uneducated and fallacious opinion when I have enough of that right here.

I bet if the video was made to slam the Stormcloaks, and essentially explained how much of a tyrant Ulfric is you would proudly watch that 10 mins video with a great big grin on your face. You would lift up your hand and erect your pointer finger to the monitor and say... "you got that right!"

I need drink.

Oh and I use this video because I'm tired of repeating myself. It's nice to see that others out there share the same pov as I do, and actually made a video to save me the time and hassle of repeating myself on this thread.

for plopss and giggles

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

I bet if the video was made to slam the Stormcloaks, and essentially explained how much of a tyrant Ulfric is you would proudly watch that 10 mins video with a great big grin on your face. You would lift up your hand and erect your pointer finger to the monitor and say... "you got that right!"

I actually wouldn't because that would be a huge waste of time and I don't care about the fictitious Civil War enough to watch someone rant for 10 minutes. Keep assuming though.

Oh and I use this video because I'm tired of repeating myself.

You're definitely the worst offender here, I've argued in circles with you countless times until you neglect to reply all together than resurface some days or weeks later to repeat the cycle.

It's nice to see that others out there share the same pov as I do, and actually made a video to save me the time and hassle of repeating myself on this thread.

Because you can't actually debate for yourself and rely on somebody else's opinion to fill your own?

 

[Crooksin]

I bet if the video was made to slam the Stormcloaks, and essentially explained how much of a tyrant Ulfric is you would proudly watch that 10 mins video with a great big grin on your face. You would lift up your hand and erect your pointer finger to the monitor and say... "you got that right!"

I need drink.

Oh and I use this video because I'm tired of repeating myself. It's nice to see that others out there share the same pov as I do, and actually made a video to save me the time and hassle of repeating myself on this thread.

for plopss and giggles

I don't get it.

 

[Raijin]

I don't get it.

It's just too damn complicated to explain.

 

[Crooksin]

It's just too damn complicated to explain.

What you just told me is a clear definition of laziness ..

 

[Raijin]

I actually wouldn't because that would be a huge waste of time and I don't care about the fictitious Civil War enough to watch someone rant for 10 minutes. Keep assuming though.

LOL

You're definitely the worst offender here, I've argued in circles with you countless times until you neglect to reply all together than resurface some days or weeks later to repeat the cycle.

Are you stalking me on this site or what? I stop replying because I felt that it wasn't worth the hassle to keep going.

Because you can't actually debate for yourself and rely on somebody else's opinion to fill your own?

Wrong.

 

[Ozan]

A surprise attack is just that, a surprise attack. Even the most perceptive and aware can be susceptible to surprise attacks. Though war was certainly upon them, and the Empire prepared for the coming conflict, the day the Thalmor swept into Cyrodiil began as any other for the citizens of the Empire. The Thalmor came without warning, and this wasn't a time when scouts and border-patrols could radio in news and information.

Because it's hard, and they didn't lose land out of neglect or lack of interest. Mede inherited a weakened and crippled Empire and did what he could to try and make things better.


Elsewyr was never an Imperial province, and was a confederacy strife with internal conflict and crisis for many years before the Great War. The Empire definitely took note to both of the provinces becoming client states of the Dominion, as it was a reason for much of the tension which eventually exploded into war. However, Elsewyr was an independent state and though the Empire provided aid and relief to it in the past it was free to make it's own decisions.

Valenwood fell to violent coups, it wasn't as if the Thalmor army marched upon it and conquered the province. After a period of internal strife and conflict among Valenwood's government the Thalmor seized control and Valenwood left the Empire to become a client state.

If a small child holding flowers were to stab one, this is a surprise attack. If an Orc glares at one the entire night while holding his axe, there is no surprise. The Aldmeri grew and took and sought. When one has grown borders is the best time to protect them, not after an invasion. A better phrase, during times of peace, prepare for war. It wasn't exactly a nation built over night.

This is Ozan's point and fuel. Former provinces become a nation. This nation grows quite well.

Now, remind Ozan about the White Gold Concordat... it was proposed twice, accepted once. Was it presented before or after the invasion?

 

[Dagmar]

Are you stalking me on this site or what? I stop replying because I felt that it wasn't worth the hassle to keep going.

Interesting how that always coincides with the irrebuttable refutation of what you try to assert with little things like facts, evidence and logic to counter misinformation, subjective characterizations and logical fallacies.

Because you can't actually debate for yourself and rely on somebody else's opinion to fill your own?

It actually takes less than three minutes (at least for me) to go through the entire content of the video as it's only written words streaming at a speed meant for someone who can't read any faster than they can speak. There is literally nothing in the video that hasn't been said in this thread and written by Raijin which makes for very fast reading. All of it has been refuted multiple times in this thread by pointing to any combination of being based on misinformation or ignorance about the lore, lack of relevance, logical fallacy, or pure speculation which is why it's LOLable that it's being posted as if it were some kind of magical cure to all of the same by being in video format:

"1 + 1 = 6"

"No you're wrong 1 + 1 = 2"

"No I'm right, here's a video where the creator says 1 + 1 = 6..see?...."

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Are you stalking me on this site or what? I stop replying because I felt that it wasn't worth the hassle to keep going.

No, I write out a reply and know whether or not you respond to it because of alerts. If you feel like it isn't worth the hassle, than it means you have no counter-argument and that you can't back up whatever you claim. Simply put it means you're wrong.

Wrong.

Right.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

If a small child holding flowers were to stab one, this is a surprise attack. If an Orc glares at one the entire night while holding his axe, there is no surprise.

On the contrary, while altercation may be inevitable between the orc and whomever it is still a matter of when and where. The tension between the Empire and the Dominion grew until they broke through Cyrodiil's borders without warning, in an age before radio communication by the time word got back to the Emperor, (who was on the other side of the continent, mind you) the Aldmeri could have slaughtered many.

Besides, there was little surprise in the attack to begin with after researching the topic. The Empire was ready and prepared when the Thalmor spilled into Cyrodiil.

The Aldmeri grew and took and sought. When one has grown borders is the best time to protect them, not after an invasion. A better phrase, during times of peace, prepare for war. It wasn't exactly a nation built over night.

The Empire and the Dominion were closely matched in terms of military strength, as by the end of the war both sides had been ravaged. It wasn't like the Dominion caught the Empire with it's pants down and steamrolled them without much quarrel or effort.

Now, remind Ozan about the White Gold Concordat... it was proposed twice, accepted once. Was it presented before or after the invasion?

The first time it was presented to the Emperor was before the invasion, when a Thalmor ambassador approached him in the Imperial City. When Mede rejected the terms, the ambassador revealed that in his wagon lay the heads of every Blades agent in the Isles. And so began the Great War. The next time it was proposed was after the Battle of the Red Ring in which forces lead by Mede retook the Imperial City and killed the commander of the Thalmor forces in Cyrodiil. The Empire, in no shape to continue war, accepted the treaty.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

What you just told me is a clear definition of laziness. If the video was so hysterically wrong why don't you challenge the video creator by making a video response to point out errors and correct them with facts?

Lol, are you serious? As already stated by Dagmar, you've used these same exact points on this very same thread. I've already, among countless others, pointed out the errors and corrected them with facts which you always ignore.