Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Lifts-Her-Tail]

Well now were back on topic I have to say I like both Imperials and Stormcloakes, as they have both comitted wrongs, but they both have their good points which is why it's so hard to choose betweeen them

 

[feliciano182]

Nah, Stormcloaks just suck.

Bethesda clearly made a twist on the archtypes of "Imperial" and "Rebel" to confuse the fans, everyone born after the Star Wars generation is going to be naturally inclined to choose the stormcloaks, some of them will change their decision after seeing the reality of Skyrim, others will of course go to this forum and rationalize the racism, the needless fighting, the alleged war crimes, the context of the political situation in Tamriel, and Ulfric's murder of the High King.

Those that don't, choose Saul Tigh \m/

 

[Ozan]

some of them will change their decision after seeing the reality of Skyrim, others will of course go to this forum and rationalize the racism, the needless fighting, the alleged war crimes, the context of the political situation in Tamriel, and Ulfric's murder of the High King.

These words cross very difficult roads indeed. Ozan dislikes One's arguments for they flex and bend. Solid words with solid evidence would be greatly desired. As Khajiit, Ozan has never trusted Colovian. Khajiit has fought many times against Colovian for the cities of Leyawiin. This war was fought in Elsweyr and brought much hate to the Colovian Legion. Ahzirr Traajijazeri is a book that one should read. Very similar to the Stormcloak Nord and their situation. A derogatory term is embraced by a rebellious people and they fight an indirect war to tear their lands from Colovian rule.

This tale is common.

The Legion is not as popular as they appear. When Vvardenfell belonged to Colovian rule, the Dunmer disliked them for it. Why? Atrocities are not uncommon to the Colovian. The Legion exists because of the power they crave. Something to be feared indeed, which is why Khajiit are still not allowed in Colovian Nord cities.

They are in Skyrim for power and war. How greatly can a war machine help if such horror may be committed by a group which has committed such horrors in the past?

 

[feliciano182]

These words cross very difficult roads indeed. Ozan dislikes One's arguments for they flex and bend. Solid words with solid evidence would be greatly desired. As Khajiit, Ozan has never trusted Colovian. Khajiit has fought many times against Colovian for the cities of Leyawiin. This war was fought in Elsweyr and brought much hate to the Colovian Legion. Ahzirr Traajijazeri is a book that one should read. Very similar to the Stormcloak Nord and their situation. A derogatory term is embraced by a rebellious people and they fight an indirect war to tear their lands from Colovian rule.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to try to oppose The Cyrodilic Empire, just not for the reasons Ulfric proposes, and certainly not at a time when deluded elves threaten to destroy everyone.

I mean, as Dagmar said once, Skyrim really isn't in inmediate danger if The Stormcloaks win the war, but why does the rest of Tamriel have to be sacrificed for Ulfric's ambitions ?

The Legion is not as popular as they appear. When Vvardenfell belonged to Colovian rule, the Dunmer disliked them for it. Why? Atrocities are not uncommon to the Colovian. The Legion exists because of the power they crave. Something to be feared indeed, which is why Khajiit are still not allowed in Colovian Nord cities.

Nobody is a saint, and nobody has claimed to be one, I could probably put forth Captain Aldis in his mentions about how honor is irrelevant when fighting a war, it reflects a mindset which exists within The Empire; for my part, I actually disagree with that mindset, but nobody has ever said that The Empire is the ultimate force of good, it is simply the only one that is worth fighting for, The Stormcloaks will disrupt the only chance that they, along with Tamriel, have of opposing The Thalmor.

I mean, how easy would this choice be if there was no Aldmeri Dominion ? It would certainly be much easier to feel for The Stormcloaks were they not a personality cult being led by a war-mongering delusional prick who murdered The High King, nope, there was no duel.

They are in Skyrim for power and war. How greatly can a war machine help if such horror may be committed by a group which has committed such horrors in the past?

A war machine is unfit to fight another war machine ? Why, Khajiiti logic is certainly alien to me !

And nobody is in Skyrim for the love of the land, everyone is in it for the take, both imperial and nord alike, otherwise, the nords wouldn't have any trouble giving away The Reach, but oh so many silver veins would be lost, bummer huh ?

 

[Ozan]

One moment, the Stormcloak Nord is part of a cult. The next? A WAR machine. Ozan has learned something. War machines often have no need to hide as they may survive on the front lines. The Stormcloak Nord is a group of rebels and little else. Some openly claim how they do not trust the Ulfric Nord but they fight for the cause is right. How interesting that you know full well that the Legion wish not to defend Skyrim's people or interests... Does Ozan speak with a greedy Colovian or does one relish in the chaos of war?

The Colovian Nord forsakes all laws and tradition and rationality to fight a war which many refuse to take seriously. Perhaps things are different for Khajiit, but if the oppressors claim to support the people, then proof is to be demanded that such actions are indeed for the people's best interest.

 

[feliciano182]

Jesus christ man, I love your speech too much to be angry at you.

One moment, the Stormcloak Nord is part of a cult. The next? A WAR machine.

The "cult" part means that their cause is void, they aren't moved by a desire to free Skyrim more than they are about following the lead of a charismatic figure.

Also, The Empire is a war machine that helps to provide security, trade and peace throughout all provinces and all regions within it's grasp..................while also cutting off traitors' heads.

Nothing is perfect, but remember, each province rules itself, any mistreatment in Skyrim towards Khajiit can only be attributed to the nord courts. And were The Stormcloaks' reasons for fighting better, as well as no Aldmeri Dominion threat, I wouldn't be opposed to insurrection, unfortunately, their cause sucks argonian tail, and The Thalmor have no intention of backing down.

Some openly claim how they do not trust the Ulfric Nord but they fight for the cause is right.

Man those are some DAMN FEW nords !

How interesting that you know full well that the Legion wish not to defend Skyrim's people or interests... Does Ozan speak with a greedy Colovian or does one relish in the chaos of war?

I'm a realist, The Empire has investments in Skyrim, just as much as the "true nords", to pretend that any side is in it without any material interest is nothing short of delusional, again, same reason why the nords are oppresive towards the reachmen.

Perhaps things are different for Khajiit, but if the oppressors claim to support the people, then proof is to be demanded that such actions are indeed for the people's best interest.

What kind of proof would satisfy you ? Not being roasted alive by Thalmor magic ?

Everyone in this war simply has to see what each side does and offers, and make a choice.

Now, I won't be answering for a while, but I'm enjoying this talk and I will continue to participate in it, for it actually contains reasonable arguments and more than decent writing, just later.

 

[Ozan]

Jesus christ man, I love your speech too much to be angry at you.

Forgive Ozan should he purr like a kitten as such words make this Khajiit quite content. Though one leaves, Ozan shall still speak as his words shall be here upon One's return.

Khajiit understands the words which are spoken truly take the place of other words. One should take it as a compliment for addressing words so simply instead of how they're intended is to buy time to strengthen their own argument. However, Khajiit has found a minor opening in the words which have followed. To claim the Legion can not dole laws upon the Nord people is silly, at best. Upon he ears of Solitude's Fair Jarl is the breath of the Colovian General, a wind which bears advice and makes requests and simplifies and notifies. General Tullius is a passive Colovian, so long as the job is done, he will not mind how. This is Colovian culture as a whole. They do not fret themselves with insignificant matters as they often have more pressing matters to attend to. Khajiit was told as a cub that the even the mightiness of the unforgiving desert is made from individual grains of sand. To put off for one day is to put off for ten. The General does not bother himself with racism of Khajiit because he intends to ignore it as all do not allow Khajiit. Should he truly wish to claim the racism of the Stormcloak, then the double standard must be abolished. In addition, it is unwise to execute anyone without reason. Such a shame he allows this, but the General has more pressing matters... always.

And the Nords who disagree? They are allowed to fight still for their shield comrades trust them enough that they'll stay for without the man, there would still be cause. The wind bears the words that are never spoken. The words that are spoken are to be carried in the hearts of those who believe in it. The Stormcloak Nord shall always exist, even if Ulfric passes.

As for the Nord claiming their own lands for material gain, Ozan continues to sympathize as his Elsweyr has suffered so much like the Nord sands of Skyrim. Ozan has said this once, perhaps twice. Khajiit and Nord are comrades. Brothers and sisters at arms. Even if the Nord does not know it yet. The Renrijra Krin or Mercenary's Grin if spoken without Ta'agra knows the suffering the Stormcloak must endure

 

[feliciano182]

Found time for one more reply !

However, Khajiit has found a minor opening in the words which have followed. To claim the Legion can not dole laws upon the Nord people is silly, at best. Upon he ears of Solitude's Fair Jarl is the breath of the Colovian General, a wind which bears advice and makes requests and simplifies and notifies. General Tullius is a passive Colovian, so long as the job is done, he will not mind how. This is Colovian culture as a whole. They do not fret themselves with insignificant matters as they often have more pressing matters to attend to.

I disagree, as far as we know, The Empire works only as a coalition of provinces whose strength lies in the combined might of it's multiple states and the trade amongst them, as long as your province has soldiers in The Legions and you pay your taxes, no impositions are made on the provinces themselves, there's no "imperial religion" being hammered on anyone, there doesn't seem to be any "provincial decreets" (to mention an equivalent to USA's federal laws), and until the WGC there was no ideological persecution, there still isn't to some extent, there are no imperial justiciars.

Now, what you mention about Solitude, is more of an attitude and the type of relationships that develop between two or more states, as Skyrim becomes part of The Empire, it becomes privy to the benefits of membership, such as protection and trade, it becomes a province, and so it enters into a relationship of dependence with the ruling regime.

The ONE thing Ulfric is right about, and by Talos it is just one thing, is that Skyrim is weak as a nation when it belongs to The Empire, now, that only really matters if you're a hardcore nord nationalist, because in truth, Skyrim is just as strong under the banner of The Empire, if not more, it has several legions at it's side waiting to fight for it, on the simple condition that it abides by the rules of membership.

Khajiit was told as a cub that the even the mightiness of the unforgiving desert is made from individual grains of sand. To put off for one day is to put off for ten.

I assume you mean putting off a rebellion to fight The Thalmor ? Not sure what you mean here.

The General does not bother himself with racism of Khajiit because he intends to ignore it as all do not allow Khajiit. Should he truly wish to claim the racism of the Stormcloak, then the double standard must be abolished. In addition, it is unwise to execute anyone without reason. Such a shame he allows this, but the General has more pressing matters... always.

Despite Tullius' position, he can't go around changing nord law, that's not his job, how much support would he lose if he started telling the Jarls to allow Khajiit in the city ? Sure, he's ignoring it, indeed he is kind of a dick, but he's doing his job as he is supposed to, he's there to quell a rebellion.

Also, we have to ask ourselves if there really exists such a thing as a trial in the fourth era of Tamriel, Ralof can say all he wants, but I've never seen Stormcloaks summoning juries and judges, nor appointing advocates anywhere within the confines of the story, we do know they take prisoners at least, but how do we know they don't cut off the heads of the people they don't like as well ? Galmar himself thinks traitors of the stormcloak cause deserve no less.

The Stormcloak Nord shall always exist, even if Ulfric passes.

As much as the widow who still grieves and loves her dead husband.

As for the Nord claiming their own lands for material gain, Ozan continues to sympathize as his Elsweyr has suffered so much like the Nord sands of Skyrim. Ozan has said this once, perhaps twice. Khajiit and Nord are comrades. Brothers and sisters at arms. Even if the Nord does not know it yet. The Renrijra Krin or Mercenary's Grin if spoken without Ta'agra knows the suffering the Stormcloak must endure

You might want to look at the army that accepts all walks of life, all races, all cultures, that allows Orc Strongholds to be formed and both nord and dunmer to assume the highest positions amongst The Empire, and which looks down even on the killing of giants.

GIANTS for crying out loud !

 

[Ozan]

True and correct on all counts... yet it is also completely wrong. The General, as Ozan has reminded, is passive. A cunning Colovian, no doubt here. But because he does not value every minor victory or every minor victory, he can easily lose everything altogether.

The mightiest desert is made from many individual grains of sands.

It means that the littlest of things will always be important for the larger picture. One can succeed with all and most, but if One has very little while another has much more, how is victory to be achieved. The Jarl listens to the General, his word affects her decision. Should he propose she allows Khajiit to appeal to those already think Ulfric is racist, this would strengthen such beliefs. Ulfric oppresses Dunmer, Argonian, and others. He does not allow Khajiit in the cities either when others do, how does Ulfric display progress and social advancement then?

This is such a grain of sand to form a desert. Unfortunately, It's for not as he lacks action. Never would he protect those who were never involved. The fur ridden Galmar who also wears bear skin ((Kek)) is perhaps impulsive but ultimately, Ulfric would have spared Khajiit. Probably wouldn't accept Khajiit with open arms, but probably wouldn't care if Khajiit were let go.

In addition, if the Empire really is a coalition, what's the point? Hammerfell given to Altmer? Morrowind conquered by filthy Argonian? Valenwood and Elsweyr also part of the Dominion? Terrible coalition. Only Daggerfell and Cyrodiil left,maybe Skyrim.

The Empire is weakest now. All because of a man's lack of winning a war 30 years ago.

 

[Raijin]

I found a picture that fits well with this thread

So what will it be?

 

[Brit Hahdrim]

I definetly like men with deeper voices! For example: Ulfric and Farkas.

The type of men I dont like are: Titus Mede II, Tullius, Legate Rikke (Rikke is a man secretly)

I'm an Ulfric fangirl because of his earnest stupidity ...I mean, he's funny. Yeah, being like that is attractive to me, even if you're wrong, like he is. But HE'S SO ADORABLE!!

 

[Brit Hahdrim]

True and correct on all counts... yet it is also completely wrong. The General, as Ozan has reminded, is passive. A cunning Colovian, no doubt here. But because he does not value every minor victory or every minor victory, he can easily lose everything altogether.

The mightiest desert is made from many individual grains of sands.

It means that the littlest of things will always be important for the larger picture. One can succeed with all and most, but if One has very little while another has much more, how is victory to be achieved. The Jarl listens to the General, his word affects her decision. Should he propose she allows Khajiit to appeal to those already think Ulfric is racist, this would strengthen such beliefs. Ulfric oppresses Dunmer, Argonian, and others. He does not allow Khajiit in the cities either when others do, how does Ulfric display progress and social advancement then?

This is such a grain of sand to form a desert. Unfortunately, It's for not as he lacks action. Never would he protect those who were never involved. The fur ridden Galmar who also wears bear skin ((Kek)) is perhaps impulsive but ultimately, Ulfric would have spared Khajiit. Probably wouldn't accept Khajiit with open arms, but probably wouldn't care if Khajiit were let go.

In addition, if the Empire really is a coalition, what's the point? Hammerfell given to Altmer? Morrowind conquered by filthy Argonian? Valenwood and Elsweyr also part of the Dominion? Terrible coalition. Only Daggerfell and Cyrodiil left,maybe Skyrim.

The Empire is weakest now. All because of a man's lack of winning a war 30 years ago.

Tullius can arrange his victories so that it can form a cohesive plot, like a row of dominoes, or a Rube Goldberg machine, but a set of individual victories won;t do anything but delay the enemy. Imagine that you are trying to build a desert on a hill with constant rain. Each individual grain of sand would have to be placed in a way to form a wall around the rest-- perhaps in a ditch. Regardless, sprinkling sand about randomly wouldn't do anything. Tullius doesn't want an endless chain of battles. No one wants that. The Empire is strategically planning out their course of action. If they go on battling for too long, all the population-- of both Skyrim and Tamriel-- will become worn and left easy prey if the Thalmor are sneaky enough. We already know that the Thalmor want the war to go on as long as possible, anyways.

 

[Lifts-Her-Tail]

OKay I'm getting a little confused which side people actually support so er can anyone tell me which side they are actually on as there is so much to read and not enough time to do so and I don't feel like scrolling through 237 pages as I would probably be a bit sleepy after I've read it all??

 

[Raijin]

The Imperials picked the wrong person to wrongfully execute. Now payback is a bitch. Apologies are meaningless

 

[Docta Corvina]

The Imperials picked the wrong person to wrongfully execute. Now payback is a bitch. Apologies are meaningless

Yes, well...playing the 'Dragonborn' DLC has made me infinitely more fond of Dunmer (never disliked them, though). In fact, my latest serious game crush is a Dark Elf mercenary.

So, yeah, Ulfric? All that anti-Dunmer stuff in your city...well, payback's a bitch! I'll be taking some new friends on a journey from Solstheim whenever the PC version of the DLC is released, Until then, I must content myself with the limitations of the Xbox version. ...And scheming.

 

[Lifts-Her-Tail]

Docta are you on Pc??

 

[Docta Corvina]

Docta are you on Pc??

That I am. PC and Xbox. Sorta spoiled that way.

 

[Lifts-Her-Tail]

hehe I'm on PC for one reason only... I can get Mods

 

[Raijin]

Yes, well...playing the 'Dragonborn' DLC has made me infinitely more fond of Dunmer (never disliked them, though). In fact, my latest serious game crush is a Dark Elf mercenary.

So, yeah, Ulfric? All that anti-Dunmer stuff in your city...well, payback's a bitch! I'll be taking some new friends on a journey from Solstheim whenever the PC version of the DLC is released, Until then, I must content myself with the limitations of the Xbox version. ...And scheming.

To the blazing with the Dark elves! I prefer Snow elves instead The Snow elves will rise up. It's matter of time.

 

[Brit Hahdrim]

LOL I didn't know that Snow Elves were capable of asexual reproduction.

Makes them so much more awesome now!