Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[NENALATA]

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak​

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_"Madmen"_of_the_Reach​

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth​

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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter​

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*http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book) + *http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline​

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*By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.​

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~*~​

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*From 4E 176 - 4E 180 (4 YEARS) Ulfric and the Stormcloaks stood by and DID. NOTHING. AT. ALL. to assist Hammerfell in their struggle for Freedom against the Thalmor.​

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Ulfric isn't clean either and between this and what he did at Markarth, I challenge the ascertain that Ulfric is the "Good Guy" or that his Stormcloaks are the "Good Guys". No one is good in this however Gen Tullius is a good leader and knows how to deal with everyone (not just sit there and give speeches).​

Empire did EVERYTHING they could, what's Ulfric's problem? Why didn't he do the same? Unless anyone wants to argue with me against the above, I wish to join with the other Imperials on here and Declare the Empire Vindicated. The Prosecution rests on this end. ​

 

[Ozan]

Ulfric isn't clean either

Isn't that the argument of both sides? Not Ulfric is an ass, but the other side isn't the best either. Think thats the entire point. Like a choose your own adventure story book where everyone is actually made out of cheese.))

 

[Anouck]

Personally I believe the only good reasoning for joining the Stormcloaks is because - well heck, the Empire just tried to chop your head off. Only a total nutjob would then run after them and join their cause, or maybe someone who takes the long view.
But from the emotional side, wouldn't hatred or at least dislike be the first reaction?

Big organizations never operate perfectly. Mistakes are being made and little errors slip through. If your execution would be unfair, that's an argument you could use to defend the Empire. But to be honest; we don't know whether or not your execution was fair. We don't know why you got arrested - just that you were.

But regardless of justifying an execution; is that really the reason to join the Stormcloaks? Is that the big gun people use to beat the Empire in an argument? 'They tried to execute me so fluff them sons of bitches'. That has nothing to do with your political convictions at all.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

Big organizations never operate perfectly. Mistakes are being made and little errors slip through. If your execution would be unfair, that's an argument you could use to defend the Empire. But to be honest; we don't know whether or not your execution was fair. We don't know why you got arrested - just that you were.

But regardless of justifying an execution; is that really the reason to join the Stormcloaks? Is that the big gun people use to beat the Empire in an argument? 'They tried to execute me so fluff them sons of bitches'. That has nothing to do with your political convictions at all.

A person who just had to fear for his/her life isn't in the mood to think rationally and reasonably. Look at that fellow who tried to run away to escape execution, or do you think he would have run through Imperial soldiers under any normal circumstance?
Doesn't matter whether it was fair or not. People usually cling to their lives.

 

[NENALATA]

Anouck said: ↑

Big organizations never operate perfectly. Mistakes are being made and little errors slip through. If your execution would be unfair, that's an argument you could use to defend the Empire. But to be honest; we don't know whether or not your execution was fair. We don't know why you got arrested - just that you were.​

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But regardless of justifying an execution; is that really the reason to join the Stormcloaks? Is that the big gun people use to beat the Empire in an argument? 'They tried to execute me so fluff them sons of bitches'. That has nothing to do with your political convictions at all.​

A person who just had to fear for his/her life isn't in the mood to think rationally and reasonably. Look at that fellow who tried to run away to escape execution, or do you think he would have run through Imperial soldiers under any normal circumstance?
Doesn't matter whether it was fair or not. People usually cling to their lives.

I followed Hadvar out during my first run. One of the first things I noticed, was that after the Dragon attacks, the Imperials have PLENTY of opportunity to kill you. (at least 3 that I can think of off the top of my head)

Another thing, on the way to chopping block Gen Tullius shoots you a look like, "Who is that?" Cause he doesn't know what his Officer is doing, he's focused on Ulfric.
The fault lies on two parties: 1) The Imp Officer over the execution detail and 2) The Imps who put you on the cart.

It's somewhere in there. And I *believe* Lady Lawgiver's son was imprisoned for speaking out against Ulfric. While in Whiterun, Heimskr curses the Empire freely in full view of the public in the city square.

 

[Anouck]

Big organizations never operate perfectly. Mistakes are being made and little errors slip through. If your execution would be unfair, that's an argument you could use to defend the Empire. But to be honest; we don't know whether or not your execution was fair. We don't know why you got arrested - just that you were.

But regardless of justifying an execution; is that really the reason to join the Stormcloaks? Is that the big gun people use to beat the Empire in an argument? 'They tried to execute me so fluff them sons of bitches'. That has nothing to do with your political convictions at all.

A person who just had to fear for his/her life isn't in the mood to think rationally and reasonably. Look at that fellow who tried to run away to escape execution, or do you think he would have run through Imperial soldiers under any normal circumstance?
Doesn't matter whether it was fair or not. People usually cling to their lives.

At the moment itself? Oh, yes. No one is rational or reasonable when they are facing death. But you don't pick your side during the execution. You do that after leaving Helgen - when the adrenaline rush is over already. So I don't think that's a good argument to defend that statement.
If I'd have to defend this, I'd probably say a person holds a strong personal bias against the Empire after the execution. And because of that, they can't judge the Empire in an objective way. Their first experience with the Legion was a negative one.

...But even then I disagree with it. It's like saying: 'I got a speeding ticket from the cops when I didn't deserve it, therefor the police sucks. I join the guerrilla!'. That wouldn't make sense either.

I've heard good reasons to join the Stormcloaks. But the execution is, in my opinion, one of the worst arguments to do so.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I would think Alduin burning everyone, would from a player perspective. Be more threatening than a close shave with the Legion. Not to mention it is Hadvar who escorts you through the worst of the dragon attack, where Ralof only takes you to the tower.

Since this Legionnaire has made it his priority to protect you, and to escort you safely through the chaos. I would think one would indeed follow Hadvar, since Ralof is more the stranger. While Hadvar has been with you through the most dangerous parts.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

In different words; it will depend on your Dragonborn's temper. Not everyone is forgiving and appreciative, there are plenty of d!cks about who'd just do everything to make the person or structure they work with suffer. That's also what plenty of movies are about, although not rarely the protagonist gets a clearer mind afterwards, when seeing how the other people aren't simply the evil beasts he thought them to be. Or seeing what his own people are doing.

It's still an argument, just a very relative one and probably best used for RPers.

 

[DrunkenMage]

It's still an argument, just a very relative one and probably best used for RPers.

In Stormcloak controlled Riften, speaking to one of the Priests of Mara. You're given the dialogue option "Which of the Eight Divines do you serve?"

The Dovahkiin appears to follow the White-Gold Concordat.

 

[Jeremius]

It's still an argument, just a very relative one and probably best used for RPers.

In Stormcloak controlled Riften, speaking to one of the Priests of Mara. You're given the dialogue option "Which of the Eight Divines do you serve?"

The Dovahkiin appears to follow the White-Gold Concordat.

Perhaps Dovahkiin just says that in case any Thalmor spies are around. They can be anywhere, even in Stormcloak territory.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Perhaps Dovahkiin just says that in case any Thalmor spies are around. They can be anywhere, even in Stormcloak territory.

1. Thalmor send execution teams after your character.
2. You break into their embassy causing them problems.
3. You can provoke Thalmor Justiciars.
4. Can break into the Thalmor political prison and disrupt their operations.
5. Technically become part of the Blades, Thalmor's sworn enemy.

But, Dovahkiin says that just in case the Thalmor are watching? In Stormcloak territory, where other people are more open about Talos?

Why does this not sound right to me... I wonder.

 

[Anouck]

It's still an argument, just a very relative one and probably best used for RPers.

In Stormcloak controlled Riften, speaking to one of the Priests of Mara. You're given the dialogue option "Which of the Eight Divines do you serve?"

The Dovahkiin appears to follow the White-Gold Concordat.

Perhaps Dovahkiin just says that in case any Thalmor spies are around. They can be anywhere, even in Stormcloak territory.

The Dovahkiin is what you make him to be. It is a blank character that doesn't have any opinions or thoughts of his own.The moment you decide: "My character is a Stormcloak" he is a Stormcloak. The moment you decide "My character is an assassin who doesn't eat meat on Sunday, wears reading glasses and is lactose intolerant" he is.
There is no such thing as the Dovahkiin who thinks "let's be careful in case Thalmor spies are around" because this character is not meant to think anything. It is not a programmed character with thoughts and opinions. If that would be the case, you couldn't RP as a Thalmor because he is already afraid of Thalmor spies.

The Dovahkiin is blank, until you decide to give him a personality. And you can roleplay he is afraid of Thalmor spies - sure. It's just not something Bethesda programmed that way. It is your own creation.

 

[Jeremius]

The Dovahkiin is what you make him to be. It is a blank character that doesn't have any opinions or thoughts of his own.The moment you decide: "My character is a Stormcloak" he is a Stormcloak. The moment you decide "My character is an assassin who doesn't eat meat on Sunday, wears reading glasses and is lactose intolerant" he is.
There is no such thing as the Dovahkiin who thinks "let's be careful in case Thalmor spies are around" because this character is not meant to think anything. It is not a programmed character with thoughts and opinions. If that would be the case, you couldn't RP as a Thalmor because he is already afraid of Thalmor spies.

The Dovahkiin is blank, until you decide to give him a personality. And you can roleplay he is afraid of Thalmor spies - sure. It's just not something Bethesda programmed that way. It is your own creation.

I was making a point. That point is that DrunkenMage could be wrong and that Dovahkiin might not support the WGC at all. However, one does not need to talk to anyone for anything outside of quests, so the Dovahkiin might not really know anything other than they need to know for their quest they are doing.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The Dovahkiin appears to follow the White-Gold Concordat.

or at least not mine, lol.

 

[Jeremius]

The Dovahkiin appears to follow the White-Gold Concordat.

or at least not mine, lol.

You do not even have to talk to any priest but Maramal, about the Marriage "quest." Not like it means anything.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I was making a point. That point is that DrunkenMage could be wrong and that Dovahkiin might not support the WGC at all. However, one does not need to talk to anyone for anything outside of quests, so the Dovahkiin might not really know anything other than they need to know for their quest they are doing.

You don't need to talk to anyone, can be anti social. Doesn't make your character unknowing. They're part of the world, so would have an understanding of it.

or at least not mine, lol.

All characters have it. It is the only dialogue option available when speaking to any of the Priests/Priestess. You ask them "Which of the Eight Divines do you serve?"

Can't hide from it forever.

You do not even have to talk to any priest but Maramal, about the Marriage "quest." Not like it means anything.

You forget the Agent of Mara quest. Also what does it matter? Just because you ignore speaking to NPC's doesn't change what the character's dialogue option for them is.

It is there, and it is the only option available. Which means there is no "But" and "What if". You are scripted only towards that one option, thus it is meant to be.

 

[Jeremius]

DrunkenMage: The line has no meaning because the line is just there to set up a quest. And other than direct effects, there is no meaning behind any of the dialogue in the game

All dialogue is optional. That is the truth behind this. The line could also just be establishing that the Empire only recognizes eight divines officially. Did you think of that, Mr. Lore.

 

[Ozan]

I would think Alduin burning everyone, would from a player perspective. Be more threatening than a close shave with the Legion. Not to mention it is Hadvar who escorts you through the worst of the dragon attack, where Ralof only takes you to the tower.

Since this Legionnaire has made it his priority to protect you, and to escort you safely through the chaos. I would think one would indeed follow Hadvar, since Ralof is more the stranger. While Hadvar has been with you through the most dangerous parts.

"Follow me or I'll kill you myself!"

Right. Protecting you.))

 

[Anouck]

DrunkenMage: The line has no meaning because the line is just there to set up a quest. And other than direct effects, there is no meaning behind any of the dialogue in the game

All dialogue is optional. That is the truth behind this. The line could also just be establishing that the Empire only recognizes eight divines officially.

All dialogue is optional, yes. If you choose not to have that dialogue, you will never say that line. However, the fact that you will use the line when you enter the dialogue, implies something about the character. The fact that the situation never occurred, doesn't say anything about the character. Because, apparently, if the circumstances are right, he will say it.

Did you think of that, Mr. Lore.

Did you think of this, Mr. Roleplay?

"Follow me or I'll kill you myself!"

Right. Protecting you.))

"Still alive, prisoner? Keep close to me if you want to stay that way"

That's what he says. But I don't think you should see that as 'follow me or I'll kill you myself'. It is just that you won't make it, running around with your hands bound, having no idea where to go. If you want to stay alive, it's better to follow Hadvar who can help you to escape Helgen.

 

[Jeremius]

DrunkenMage: The line has no meaning because the line is just there to set up a quest. And other than direct effects, there is no meaning behind any of the dialogue in the game

All dialogue is optional. That is the truth behind this. The line could also just be establishing that the Empire only recognizes eight divines officially.

All dialogue is optional, yes. If you choose not to have that dialogue, you will never say that line. However, the fact that you will use the line when you enter the dialogue, implies something about the character. The fact that the situation never occurred, doesn't say anything about the character. Because, apparently, if the circumstances are right, he will say it.

Or it could mean that the Empire only recognizes 8 divines officially. Just like you can tell the Thalmor Justiciars that you worship Talos. You might not.