Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
So that's the way you wanna play it huh? That's fine.

What way? I really don't see what "way" I "wanna play" and how you got that sense from my post.


I know I've done MORE than my fair share of defending the Empire while on here and before. Long enough to know that you cannot trust Emperor Mede or his "Officers". Right?


Also done more than my fair share of defending the Thalmor too. ;)

I know. We all know. The people who have been in this thread for a while, that is. I never assumed anything different, nor did Mage or anyone else active in this thread right now. So I don't see what you're trying to prove.

The only thing I could say, is that it is difficult to take moral/subjective arguments of yours seriously. You tend to switch sides every now and then, and therefor leave the impression even you doubt your own opinion. And that is good, in a way. It is always good to have an open mind to other ideas. But you can never really defend something you believe in if you leave and join sides every other week.

That's all well and fine with me Anouck. Except you're forgetting about something.

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An Emperor and Admin whom thinks it's ok to surrender the Freedom(s) of his 'subjects' is not fit to rule and must be dealt with. Emperor Mede II and his entire Admin need to be purged.

Okay. So what would you define as "freedom" then? Surrendering to the Aldmeri Dominion who then will take over the entire province? The Empire was going to lose the Great War and had to sign that peace treaty. Otherwise there wouldn't be an Empire left now.
The WGC is a temporary solution. It is something the Empire had to do in order to give themselves time to rebuild forces and regain strength. It was the only chance they had. It was the treaty, or getting wiped off of the face of Nirn by the AD. It was choosing between two evils - so whatever option they would go with, it would not be the ideal outcome of the situation.
Sometimes plops gets worse before it gets better. That's just realistic.


The Civil War and the Thalmor are more or less challenges that the Imperial Citizens should never have had to deal with, these things should have been handled properly by the Emperor, Legion and left at that.

War is never something anyone should have to deal with. But then again; those are moral convictions. Do they survive realism? I think not. A war affects a country, a nation, a province, an empire. It is impossible to wage a war in which citizens are not involved. And you can decide to not declare war on others, but if others declare war on you; that is where your power ends. That is where you have to make the best out of a situation you didn't want to be in to begin with. And just always surrendering isn't an option. That's obvious.

And that's really, the main reason the Empire is having so many problems. The Legion STOPPED FIGHTING the War. So, now it's the Citizens problem.

They had to stop fighting. Otherwise there would be no Legion left to discuss now. Tell me, what is the best option: Fighting until the last man, woman and soldier left standing is dead? Knowing you are going to lose? Putting yourself in a hopeless situation just because you are too proud to acknowledge you are not going to win this? You have to understand, if you lose - you are completely dependent on your enemy's mercy. If you sign a temporary peace treaty, you get a second chance.

Getting defeated VS a second chance... Doesn't sound like a difficult choice to me...
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
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NENALATA said:
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NENALATA said:
So that's the way you wanna play it huh? That's fine.​
:confused: The hell are you on about?​

Oh she was joking wasn't she? My bad. :p I never know, no one ever tells me these things.​
Joking about what? What did I say that implied anything at all about "the way I want to play"?


You tell me... Although after reading your other post I understand what you mean now, at the time I did not.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
I know I've done MORE than my fair share of defending the Empire while on here and before. Long enough to know that you cannot trust Emperor Mede or his "Officers". Right?​
Also done more than my fair share of defending the Thalmor too. ;)
I know. We all know. The people who have been in this thread for a while, that is. I never assumed anything different, nor did Mage or anyone else active in this thread right now. So I don't see what you're trying to prove.

The only thing I could say, is that it is difficult to take moral/subjective arguments of yours seriously. You tend to switch sides every now and then, and therefor leave the impression even you doubt your own opinion. And that is good, in a way. It is always good to have an open mind to other ideas. But you can never really defend something you believe in if you leave and join sides every other week.


Whose saying I don't believe in both sides? Perhaps that's my goal here. To find the common ground between the two. You support the WGC... and you take that seriously. Honestly, if you can't understand why the other guys "do what they do" then how do you ever expect to win a war with them or make peace?

That's all well and fine with me Anouck. Except you're forgetting about something.​
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Only the ones named "Lois" lolz


An Emperor and Admin whom thinks it's ok to surrender the Freedom(s) of his 'subjects' is not fit to rule and must be dealt with. Emperor Mede II and his entire Admin need to be purged.​
Okay. So what would you define as "freedom" then? Surrendering to the Aldmeri Dominion who then will take over the entire province? The Empire was going to lose the Great War and had to sign that peace treaty. Otherwise there wouldn't be an Empire left now.
The WGC is a temporary solution. It is something the Empire had to do in order to give themselves time to rebuild forces and regain strength. It was the only chance they had. It was the treaty, or getting wiped off of the face of Nirn by the AD. It was choosing between two evils - so whatever option they would go with, it would not be the ideal outcome of the situation.
Sometimes pl*** gets worse before it gets better. That's just realistic.


Doesn't matter. Not when you consider the FUTURE. Because TMII signed his Death Warrant when signed the WGC. For the Emperor of Tamriel to 'surrender' at all ~ is very, very bad. It'd be like the President of the United States surrendering when the war was not lost. It may have been necessary however it's disrespectful to their office. Not when the war wasn't over. Esp not when Hammerfell won in the end after being abandoned by the Emperor of Tamriel.


The Civil War and the Thalmor are more or less challenges that the Imperial Citizens should never have had to deal with, these things should have been handled properly by the Emperor, Legion and left at that.​
War is never something anyone should have to deal with. But then again; those are moral convictions. Do they survive realism? I think not. A war affects a country, a nation, a province, an empire. It is impossible to wage a war in which citizens are not involved. And you can decide to not declare war on others, but if others declare war on you; that is where your power ends. That is where you have to make the best out of a situation you didn't want to be in to begin with. And just always surrendering isn't an option. That's obvious.


Not what I mean. Ok, if the war is still on ~ That's one thing. Yeah they suffer but then everyone is suffering and trying to win. Like we're all in this. And for the Gov to then... stop fighting... abandon the citizens to CONTINUE to fight the war that they... stopped fighting... shows a HUGE DISCONNECT between they and they Gov. Exactly whom does their Gov represent?


And that's really, the main reason the Empire is having so many problems. The Legion STOPPED FIGHTING the War. So, now it's the Citizens problem.​
They had to stop fighting. Otherwise there would be no Legion left to discuss now. Tell me, what is the best option: Fighting until the last man, woman and soldier left standing is dead? Knowing you are going to lose? Putting yourself in a hopeless situation just because you are too proud to acknowledge you are not going to win this? You have to understand, if you lose - you are completely dependent on your enemy's mercy. If you sign a temporary peace treaty, you get a second chance.

Getting defeated VS a second chance... Doesn't sound like a difficult choice to me...


Why? Why didn't the Redguards HAVE TO STOP FIGHTING? They didn't. By signing the WGC, the Empire lost. That's why Hammerfell wouldn't stop. Never let up, show the no quarter, no mercy for they would receive none themselves.

No, there is no second chance. The Empire might look like it's getting a second chance, however, in *reality* the Empire will one day be forced to finish this war and clean up it's mess, which has been tabled for now with the citizens paying for it. As opposed to the Redguards, who paid upfront and now the Dominion respects them.

This seems to me like more of an Armistice than an actual peace treaty.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
And I don't blame the entire Empire for what TMII and his Admin/Officers did themselves. Everyone was forced to go along with it, or further lines would have drawn in the sand. That my friend, is the sole reason why the Empire should get a second chance to fix what their defective Emperor did to them, moreover, the Elder Council was clearly against this either from the start or somewhere along the line they grew a conscience, so I would feel comfortable leaving them in charge with a possibility of another Dragonborn Emperor/Empress taking the throne.

Let me make this clear: I like the Dominion but don't approve of the Thalmor's leadership. I've always played an Elven race, so this should not be a surprise to anyone. I always believe in a Post Mede Empire, where most Imperials on here are defending the Mede Empire. They are completely different concepts in most regards. If I will not defend that Thalmor's actions, then I'm not going to defend Titus Mede II's.

And that's it. :p

But whatever. Perhaps we just got off on the wrong foot. It happens.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Whereas if everyone was doing what they were supposed to do to start with, they'd either be a lot better off or have religious freedom restored by now.


Whereas if the Stormcloaks, or the Nords in general, never caused the problems, Skyrim would never have been in the situation it is in right now.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
In the end, if you just pay attention to the game and what it is telling you, Skyrim is far better off under the Empire than it is under the irrational, hot-headed rebellion.

If you actually paid attention to the game, you'd actually see Skyrim under the Empire is bad too.

It is still better than racially segregating people and treating people like garbage based purely on race.

Then there is the fact that Skyrim ignored the WGC before the Markarth Incident and there was not a whole lot of trouble over it.

This is what makes the Empire the right choice over the Stormcloaks. The rebels are never going to think clearly, and are obviously going to destroy Skyrim all in the name of "religious freedom" that comes with the oppression of other races, who are more important than some god.

The White-Gold Concordat oppresses Nords, the Thalmor dragging them off in the night at will? How many Nord prisoners do you think were actually caught breaking the Concordat, when the Thalmor attack you for just speaking to them.

Agents of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion are known as Thalmor. They maintain an embassy in Skyrim, and have been known to secretly capture and imprison any Nords who question their doctrines or beliefs. - Loading Screen

Talos isn't considered 'some god'. He was viewed as the greatest Divine to so many, he was man and became god. It gave humanity the hope and the question, could they do it also. Could all men strive and reach divine hood.


Once again, The Markarth Incident says hi. Many Nords who worshiped Talos seemed fine with only worshiping in their homes, until Igmund's family offered free and open Talos Worship, whic led to the Thalmor threatening war with the reach if the thing was not shut down. Seems like the only Nords truly butthurt over it is the nords that want to shout praises to Talos in the streets all over Skyrim, where as quite a few Nords want the Empire around in spite of that "oppression."
 

GrumpyBadger

Article Writer
okay,

now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, and support the Stormcloaks. Having a strong, centralized group, backed by a theocracy and a High King that earned that right through blood, makes for a more streamlined government. For the most part, Skyrim as a whole, can have an easier time protecting its own borders by just focusing on its own borders. It can have its own laws, be they racist, ethnocentric, or completely free-willing. It'd be completely sovereign and allowed to do as it, its people, and its High King wishes.

The fact is, through history, if one wants peace, one best prepare for war. Either through violence, or the threat of violence, peace is often obtained in history. By the time Skyrim is unified under a Stormcloak banner (which for my Stormcloak Paladin, happens all in under a two month time-frame in-game - VERY QUICK) where there is no longer choosing sides, but instead licking wounds, and appreciating a sovereign entity.

When looking back, what is generally better at maintaining peace? A strict, structured theocracy or dictatorship, or a free-living democracy? Both have strong points, and to be honest, I've shed more than enough of my own blood in real life defending one, against the other. But, look at the Tokugawa Shogunate, as an example - it was so strict, certain people were allowed to only wear certain colors. It was strong because of its elite military/warrior class, something very in common with the Nords of Skyrim.

I'm thinking something where they even pass a law - "If you are a Nord, you carry a sword." Where the Nords of Syrim become the elite class, where then within that, the warrior Nords, those capable of completely handling themselves become an even higher elite. Let alone if Skyrim were to come out with an edict stating "If you don't fight for Skyrim, and are not a Nord, you carry no sword." Basically stating "you want citizenship into the elite, while not being born a Son or Daughter of Skyrim? Earn it and sign the fl*ff up! :D

Basically, Stormcloaks, could be perceived by their actions in the game, as freedom fighters for their pantheon and religion. Their government system though, surrounds that pantheon, using literally "god given" talents like the Thu'um to defend their beliefs and why their leader is in charge, making him possibly even into a demi-god himself. I mean, it's not a slippery slope that much, "Talos was a man!!" - mocking the guy in Whiterun, dude cracks me up :D let alone when Ulfric has a Dovahkiin, a Dragonborn, supporting him!!

Instead of being spread out, instead of going all over trying to lick and mend wounds throughout the Empire, Skyrim instead under Ulfric would cauterize its wounds, and amputate the bad sections. Elves? If it's up the sovereign group, they could do a mass murder and eradication of all Mer. It'd technically be "lawful." They could also help, in any way they think they can, but still understanding there is still a war going on, and the true enemy is the Aldmeri Dominion. And in that, it's perfectly acceptable to take out the Empire. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," can work both ways, and the Empire, although not by choice, can easily be seen as having an alliance with the Aldmeri Dominion.

And furthermore, about Windhelm and the Dunmer, gotta love Bethesda and the ability to look at it from different angles:
Windhelm and Dunmer - Racist or Benevolent - from another Skyrim forum, hope that's okay
basically

"Imagine being the ruler of a good city. Suddenly evil looking elves show up fleeing a destruction you cannot imagine. They have nowhere to go. Your city is full but you make room for these refugees. You force your own people out of their homes and give a fourth of your city to the Dunmer. The displaced residents are not happy about this but you cannot let the elves die out in the snowy wilderness of Skyrim. You GIVE them homes. These homes are not outside the walls, apart from the Nords. You dont just give them a piece of empty snow to build on. You give them real homes inside the protection of your walls. You give them jobs and businesses so they can gain financial independence.
What do you get for your generosity? These ungrateful Dunmer accuse you of being racist. They take their fourth of your city and turn it into a slum. The streets are dirty. The flags are tattered. Your charity has harmed your people, your city and your reputation."

another great, personal example. Jarl Balgruuf and Farengar Secret-fire -
my Nord male Dovahkiin, Broc, is "Hero of Whiterun," and Thane. He's best friends with Farengar, and adores Jarl Balgruuf.

my Nord female Dovahkiin, Aednat, is a Stormcloak, and was rightfully at the chopping block. She told the Jarl of Whiterun he had better defend Riverwood. When the Jarl tries to convince her to see his Court Wizard, she sees it's a stoopid errand, and just walks out. They aren't worth it. Oh? and about the "if you are a Nord, you carry a sword" edict thought/belief? You know the Battle-Borns? If one of them tries to stop and argue with Aednat... ever see the deleted scene in Last Samurai? ;) You think she cares about her bounty? Nope. It's earned. She'll kill anyone in her way at that point. Then, ironically, Balgruuf will maker her a Thane, after killing the dragon - ergo pardoning all the past crimes! :D just shows how corrupt the system is - "Oh, all I gotta do is kill a dragon, and I'm pardoned for being a mass murderer?!?" She knows he's going to side with the Empire, and to her, it's his loss.

versus Broc, who fought to defend Whiterun, because it was his home and believed in Jarl Balgruuf. :eek:

I'm totally of the belief that both sides have their merits and faults. It's what makes it great = no easy choice.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
GrumpyBadger: The Dunmer and the Argonians Work, and live in the city is S****y conditions, but get absolutely no respect from the Stormcloaks or Ulfric. To them, they are nothing. Is that a faction that should rule? one that only respects you if you support them and only them, where the rest of Skyrim does not care if you fight or not, but earn your respect the way you can?
 

GrumpyBadger

Article Writer
Jeremius, (I have zero idea how to tag)

k. good points. But from the Stormcloak's perspective, it is the Dunmer and Argonions choice to believe they are nothing. ;) They can fight for the Stormcloaks, they can better their ghetto slums. Who honestly is holding them back, besides preconceived notions that that is how it must be so?

if one cannot fight - make armor
if one cannot make armor - grow crops!

an army cannot run, especially in the hard snow of Russia *ahem I mean Skyrim without food and clothing! Just ask Napoleon or Hitler how that went ;)

How many times in history, does a group side with a faction that only shows respect, if you support them and only them?

"Give me liberty, or give me DEATH!!" hmmm?
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Jeremius, (I have zero idea how to tag) put the (@) right before the name you want to tag.

k. good points. But from the Stormcloak's perspective, it is the Dunmer and Argonions choice to believe they are nothing. ;) They can fight for the Stormcloaks, they can better their ghetto slums. Who honestly is holding them back, besides preconceived notions that that is how it must be so?

How many times in history, does a group side with a faction that only shows respect, if you support them and only them?

"Give me liberty, or give me DEATH!!" hmmm?


The Dunmer complain, and I believe the Argonians do too. Nobody does anything, not even the Jarl whose JOB it is too deal with the complaints of his/her people.
 

GrumpyBadger

Article Writer
Is it his job, to babysit? :D

Is complaining really thought of as a positive action nowadays, or more appropriately within Skyrim's most hallowed hold? Because seriously, when I was a kid, I'd get on timeout really quick for whining, as does my three-year-old. ;)

Or how about the Dunmer and Argonians getting off their backsides and being productive? Sitting inside a shop all day, making poor contract decisions, and sitting inside a shop all day, is not a good way to run a business. Let alone when they don't make their businesses look welcoming, or are friendly when you walk in the door! I don't personally want to be treated like that, in real life, why should any Nord?

put it plainly, the Nords then see their little "slum" area, and avoid it. Why bother going in there when there's a chance of getting robbed or killed? Who is being racist now? In real life this happens all the time, no matter who is mayor, governor, or president.

Hey you ever heard of Requiem?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/19281/
AWESOME mod, see this is what I thought Skyrim would have been like out of the box.

... yeah, I'm on Xbox... :sadface: ignorance was bliss until I saw the mods.

and unlike the Dunmer and Argonians of Windhelm, I'll do something about it, instead of just complaining, and I'm buying a PC!! :D
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
Yep, yep, yep.

Although to their credit the Argonians work hard. They just want to be allowed in the city. Nothing wrong with that.

Ahhh... Thalmor, Nords, Empire my head is killing me.

GrumpyBadger, your mind is about as sharp as the precision guidance laser on a stinger missile.

That makes sense in a way, get all the offensive characters out of Skyrim and let the Nords have it. Again though... Ulfric worked with the Thalmor before... willingly cooperated.

Elenwen at the peace table takes a shot at diplomacy with him, saying it's the Empire burning everything down and the Thalmor basically want to be their friends.

So a Skyrim WITHOUT the Empire has a very good chance at the Thalmor just ignoring them. However, Cyrodil will burn and she will be consumed back in the Dominion, along with East Empire Co.

Then at that time, the Dominion will takes it's "rightful place" as the Empire of Tamriel. And everything will reset back to the good ol days of honor and glory.

OR

We could just fix the Empire, I mean, she's only got 4 Provinces left (Cyrodil, Skyrim, Highrock, Nova Orsinium). 5 if you count Morrowind as an economic ally. 2 of these Provinces are in pristine condition then there's Skyrim and Cyrodil.

And besides, the Thalmor want the Empire destroyed so... must still be something good about it.

I dunno, I just think the High Elves deserve their own nation and then there's no reason why the Empire can't exist over the kingdoms of man.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
I would think the ways things are going the Empire needs all the allies it can find. Turn Lemons into Lemonade.

The Empire needs soldiers, it needs loyalty. Maven is none of those.


Exactly why they need her. She's got lots of influence OVER the Province in dispute. It's a risk but the closer you are to danger, the further you are from harm.

Maven has influence in Riften, not beyond. There are far more important allies the Empire need.



No? Cicero's Journal is a good read. Bandits killing DB Assassins in broad daylight... Violence spreading to city after city...

Yes, twelve years ago. 1st of Hearthfire, 4E 189
Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it.

But then again you might be right, since in 4E 200 he writes;

How long since I became the fool? Since I've been alone? Since Cheydinhal fell? Since they started pounding on the door, like so many hammered heartbeats?

We must leave here. Before the Sanctuary falls.

If this is the case, how does the Empire hope to protect the citizens of Skyrim, when it can't even protect their own in Cyrodiil?


I dunno every Imperial table I see is LOADED with food and money.

Yet there are many starving under Imperial rule.


No one was oppressed (except for the blades) before Ulfric's Markarth incident. Which really was none but a PR campaign for him.

We're fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their people's suffering.

No one was oppressed before the Markarth Incident? The Markarth Incident was months after the war ended. With the Great War ending in late 4E 175, and the Markarth Incident taking place in 4E 176... No one was oppressed. For what, a couple months?

"It's the whole reason Ulfric revolted against the Empire. Well, the first reason anyway. Forsworn had taken over Markarth, and Ulfric and his men drove them out. Empire promised they'd be free to worship Talos afterwords. Pity no one told the Elves. Whole group of those Thalmor came and they demanded Ulfric's arrest." - Cedran

The Markarth Incident was valuable to the Thalmor, but I've been doing some digging and actually the Thalmor aren't in Skyrim because of Ulfric, but were allowed by Elder Council and the Emperor per the White-Gold Concordat.

"But to answer your question, the White-Gold Concordat was the fancy name they put on the peace treaty between the Empire and the Thalmor. It ended the war and saved the Empire to fight another day. Also trampled on the sacred name of Talos, and gave the Thalmor free reign to stamp out Talos worship throughout the Empire." - Delphine

"Why does the Empire allow the Thalmor free reign?" - PC

"Part of the cost of peace. Emperor Titus Mede saved his Empire at a very high price. A price that included the Blades. The Nords didn't like the peace treaty much either. Thirty years later, the Empire ends up with the Stormcloak rebellion on its hands." - Delphine

The Empire has had it's ups and downs. During these times, it was a different question being asked. Answer does not change just because the question changes.

If the answer does not change, when the question changes. Then the answer has the chance of being wrong. The Empire isn't as glorious as it once was, things are extremely bad in the Empire. Especially if those who talk about the Empire in the Fourth Era, call the 'golden days' back when the Empire was full of assassinations, rebellions, wars, civil wars, invasions and debts.



Sure we know why. It's the Elder Council, they want to make CHANGES to Imperial policy. And it's clear the Emperor opposes change. That alone is more than sufficient reason for him to step down.

But we don't know why, it was the Elder Council who created the legislation of the White-Gold Concordat. The Elder Council have opposed the Mede Dynasty ever since Titus Mede I, they didn't want a Colovian on the throne, especially a Colovian who was intelligent. They wanted someone they can control and manipulate. There is the great Elder Council for you.


And I don't blame the entire Empire for what TMII and his Admin/Officers did themselves. Everyone was forced to go along with it, or further lines would have drawn in the sand. That my friend, is the sole reason why the Empire should get a second chance to fix what their defective Emperor did to them, moreover, the Elder Council was clearly against this either from the start or somewhere along the line they grew a conscience, so I would feel comfortable leaving them in charge with a possibility of another Dragonborn Emperor/Empress taking the throne.

You do know it was the Elder Council who created the White-Gold Concordat? They handle all legislation, treaties and laws. Titus Mede II, only maintains the power of veto in Imperial Politics.

You would feel comfortable leaving the Elder Council in charge? That went well until the Stormcrown Interregnum. Not to mention they prefer people they can manipulate as Emperor. So it is unlikely we'd see another Dragonborn Emperor taking the throne with their blessing. Unless said Dragonborn is an idiot who can be used as a pawn.

Then there is the fact that Skyrim ignored the WGC before the Markarth Incident and there was not a whole lot of trouble over it.


Once again, The Markarth Incident says hi. Many Nords who worshiped Talos seemed fine with only worshiping in their homes, until Igmund's family offered free and open Talos Worship, whic led to the Thalmor threatening war with the reach if the thing was not shut down. Seems like the only Nords truly butthurt over it is the nords that want to shout praises to Talos in the streets all over Skyrim, where as quite a few Nords want the Empire around in spite of that "oppression."

I believe I've just covered that question.

Markarth Incident. The reason I got away with using the Markarth Incident was no idiot was smart enough to look up when it happened. Nords ignored the WGC before the Markarth Incident, it was like a few months after the WGC was signed.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Then there is the fact that Skyrim ignored the WGC before the Markarth Incident and there was not a whole lot of trouble over it.


Once again, The Markarth Incident says hi. Many Nords who worshiped Talos seemed fine with only worshiping in their homes, until Igmund's family offered free and open Talos Worship, whic led to the Thalmor threatening war with the reach if the thing was not shut down. Seems like the only Nords truly butthurt over it is the nords that want to shout praises to Talos in the streets all over Skyrim, where as quite a few Nords want the Empire around in spite of that "oppression."

I believe I've just covered that question.

Markarth Incident. The reason I got away with using the Markarth Incident was no idiot was smart enough to look up when it happened. Nords ignored the WGC before the Markarth Incident, it was like a few months after the WGC was signed.


How many are actually getting locked up? How many are still worshiping Talos? Oppression means nothing if it is only a few people here or there. 1/8 o Skyrim a year? I can understand that, but 100-200 a year? That is total oppression?
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
GrumpyBadger: The Dunmer and the Argonians Work, and live in the city is S****y conditions, but get absolutely no respect from the Stormcloaks or Ulfric. To them, they are nothing. Is that a faction that should rule? one that only respects you if you support them and only them, where the rest of Skyrim does not care if you fight or not, but earn your respect the way you can?

Least the Argonians aren't being tortured and killed by their city ruler... oh wait that was in Cyrodiil.

The Empire didn't care when the Argonians invaded Morrowind. Nor did the Empire care when Umbriel invaded Black Marsh, wasn't until it threatened Cyrodiil did they decide to go "Oh, guess we better face this thing."

The Stormcloaks (Military) They fight like Nords of old, where you respect those who serve alongside you. If people aren't taking up arms, sure you're going to be their best friend. But are the Argonians and Dunmer mistreated by the Stormcloaks? Are they killed? No.

Imperial Soldiers don't mind getting drunk and killing a woman's family. Thinking they were above the law, in a province so far from Cyrodiil.

Nords have always been disrespectful towards outsiders, they tolerate them, but that is the extent of it. Ulfric is doing just that, he tolerates them. Nords have been like that for hundreds if not thousands of years.

The Dunmer complain, and I believe the Argonians do too. Nobody does anything, not even the Jarl whose JOB it is too deal with the complaints of his/her people.

Actually it is the job of the Hold's Steward, which he does take their complaints to Jarl Ulfric, which he mentions "He's busy, dealing with all of Skyrim." The man is fighting a war, he doesn't have the resources to turn the Grey Quarter into a luxury resort.

Although to their credit the Argonians work hard. They just want to be allowed in the city. Nothing wrong with that.

Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm don't get along. Hence why an Scouts-Many-Marshes mentions he wishes the Nords, Dunmer and Argonians all got along.

One of the Dunmer punishes the Argonians for 'laziness' making them go without food for days.

That makes sense in a way, get all the offensive characters out of Skyrim and let the Nords have it. Again though... Ulfric worked with the Thalmor before... willingly cooperated.

Ulfric didn't willingly cooperate with the Thalmor. He hated them, it seems more likely they were using him without his knowledge. Being an asset doesn't always mean willing cooperation of even knowledge of it.

So a Skyrim WITHOUT the Empire has a very good chance at the Thalmor just ignoring them. However, Cyrodil will burn and she will be consumed back in the Dominion, along with East Empire Co.

East Empire Company is already working out trade deals with the Thalmor.

We could just fix the Empire, I mean, she's only got 4 Provinces left (Cyrodil, Skyrim, Highrock, Nova Orsinium). 5 if you count Morrowind as an economic ally. 2 of these Provinces are in pristine condition then there's Skyrim and Cyrodil.
.

Orsinium is a small mountain Kingdom. Not exactly a province, it is like a large village.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
How many are actually getting locked up? How many are still worshiping Talos? Oppression means nothing if it is only a few people here or there. 1/8 o Skyrim a year? I can understand that, but 100-200 a year? That is total oppression?

How many are worshiping Talos? Over half the population, even on the Imperial side. Kodlak, Balgruuf, the Stormcloaks, Rikke, Alvor, Hadvar etc.

Do you not understand that the Thalmor don't just 'take' you over Talos worship. They imprison anyone who questions them, they even attack the player for merely talking to them.

But worship of Talos doesn't matter, the Thalmor walk around with impunity. They take away anyone they want. They're torturing a person in their embassy to look for Esbern. So they can take just about anyone they want, torture them for whatever reasons. Be it wanting to make the Empire's job harder to restore order, or send Nords running in fear towards Ulfric's banner, free from the Thalmor.

The Nords are afraid, even Alvor admits people being dragged off in the night are one of the main causes of this war.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Stormcloaks: "we Nords caused our own problems by not trusting the Empire, so we're going to rebel and fix our mistakes so we do not have to trust the Empire, and oppress those who do not support us while doing so."

Empire: "The nords of the rebellion are acting like crybabies who need a time out. People can do whatever they want, as long as they do not cause problems for the overall Empire."

Me: "Choice is clear. Human Rights over Nordic freedoms every time. Bias and preferences are all that matters in the Civil War, not objectivity and logic."
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
So then DrunkenMage, you just roll over and give the Thalmor what they want? Your realize Cyrodil will get a tan and will prob be enslaved if Thalmor win the next round.

Empire's always had it's ups and downs. Right now it is lacking leadership. I don't like Ulfric and I don't like his personal militia.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
DrunkenMage


I find it odd that of all people, you're throwing in the towel. Pelinal Whitestrake. Ok. Pelinal. Mfing Whitestrake. is what the Empire needs.

Someone who will make them pay for running up the score after the War Ended.

No one gains anything by running and hiding other than the Thalmor. In this type of War, you DO NOT give up real estate. You suffer and slug it out. If your company is corrupt you slug them out.

Skyrim saved the Empire last time, if it did once it can do it again ba not under Ulfric. They'll sit back and watch Cyrodil burn out of spite.

If the Nords gain nothing by worshiping Talos in secret then the Empire gains nothing by running and hiding.
 

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