Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

By law? The law does not know I stole the sword. maybe in some divine sense, yes. But by "Guilty until proven innocent" there is nothing to connect to me to the theft, especially if I get out of town with it and no one notices.

you are a murderer, but if they do not know you actually killed the person, no one is going to accuse you of it so you are not actually guilty of committing a crime punishable unless you turn yourself in.

if I no long have that word after I stole it (Sold it to a fence, dropped in in the woods somewhere) Can you accuse me of stealing it if you never saw me steal it?

So you're saying it is only a crime if you're caught? Someone can be a serial killer and murder thirty people and it won't be murder or a crime if they can't connect you to it?

What is your point? Guilty until proven innocent is a Tamriel wide legal system in regards to the law.

What are you trying to get at? I'm actually at a loss to what you're even debating now.

 

[Jeremius]

By law? The law does not know I stole the sword. maybe in some divine sense, yes. But by "Guilty until proven innocent" there is nothing to connect to me to the theft, especially if I get out of town with it and no one notices.

you are a murderer, but if they do not know you actually killed the person, no one is going to accuse you of it so you are not actually guilty of committing a crime punishable unless you turn yourself in.

if I no long have that word after I stole it (Sold it to a fence, dropped in in the woods somewhere) Can you accuse me of stealing it if you never saw me steal it?

So you're saying it is only a crime if you're caught? Someone can be a serial killer and murder thirty people and it won't be murder or a crime if they can't connect you to it?

What is your point? Guilty until proven innocent is a Tamriel wide legal system in regards to the law.

What are you trying to get at? I'm actually at a loss to what you're even debating now.

just what the law says. If people are not saying you are really guilty the until proven innocent part need not apply. If you were to executed with the rebels, it is implied that me/the legion are accusing you of the same crimes as the rebels. No records of you and the accusations, no implied guilt.

 

[DrunkenMage]

just what the law says. If people are not saying you are really guilty the until proven innocent part need not apply.

I'm still at a loss? You're saying the law, that is part of lore. It is clearly stated and it is undisputed as accepted. Does not apply because of your opinion?

Game mechanics don't mean anything. If they did than the Civil war was fought with battles between six soldiers on each side. With capital cities lore wise containing 20 people or less.

 

[Jeremius]

just what the law says. If people are not saying you are really guilty the until proven innocent part need not apply.

I'm still at a loss? You're saying the law, that is part of lore. It is clearly stated and it is undisputed as accepted. Does not apply because of your opinion?

Game mechanics don't mean anything. If they did than the Civil war was fought with battles between six soldiers on each side. With capital cities lore wise containing 20 people or less.

you are still at a loss? If I drop the sword, and you never find it, or I sold it, how do you know that I stole the sword? you do not, so by the law, I cannot be accused of any crime and thus do not have to prove my innocence as no guilt is being placed upon me.

Same thing with Helgen. No records of you to be executed, they do not need to care because there are no records of you being on the chopping block for treason. I am not debating that the law does not exist, just that if there are no accusations, direct or implied, then there is no guilt by that same law.

 

[DrunkenMage]

you are still at a loss? If I drop the sword, and you never find it, or I sold it, how do you know that I stole the sword? you do not, so by the law, I cannot be accused of any crime and thus do not have to prove my innocence as no guilt is being placed upon me.

Same thing with Helgen. No records of you to be executed, they do not need to care because there are no records of you being on the chopping block for treason. I am no debating that the lore does not exist, just that if there are no accusations, direct or implicit, then there is no guilt by that same law.

You're guilty at the time of your execution. I suppose you're a free man after Helgen?

But technically you were still guilty. Doesn't mean anything would come of it, Skyrim has never been high in Imperial authority. As Jarl Balgruuf states, who the Imperials try to execute doesn't matter.

 

[Jeremius]

you are still at a loss? If I drop the sword, and you never find it, or I sold it, how do you know that I stole the sword? you do not, so by the law, I cannot be accused of any crime and thus do not have to prove my innocence as no guilt is being placed upon me.

Same thing with Helgen. No records of you to be executed, they do not need to care because there are no records of you being on the chopping block for treason. I am no debating that the lore does not exist, just that if there are no accusations, direct or implicit, then there is no guilt by that same law.

You're guilty at the time of your execution. I suppose you're a free man after Helgen?

But technically you were still guilty. Doesn't mean anything would come of it, Skyrim has never been high in Imperial authority. As Jarl Balgruuf states, who the Imperials try to execute doesn't matter.

Not "truly" free, just no longer being accused of anything therefore no more "Guilty until proven innocent."

At Helgen, you are still "Guilty" of whatever, but without records, they can't be sure who you are so you no longer need to prove your innocence.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Not "truly" free, just no longer being accused of anything therefore no more "Guilty until proven innocent."

Guilty until proven innocent still applies, since it is the legal system of Tamriel, so it will always apply. Technically you're still guilty, reality it doesn't matter. The only person who can identify you and call for your arrest 'pardons' you when you speak with him. So why does it matter?

Though at the time in Helgen, during your execution is the whole point of my mentioning the way law is done in Tamriel. What happens after Helgen doesn't matter, since this debate was about the execution. You were guilty, so it was a legal execution.

 

[Jeremius]

Not "truly" free, just no longer being accused of anything therefore no more "Guilty until proven innocent."

Guilty until proven innocent still applies, since it is the legal system of Tamriel, so it will always apply. Technically you're still guilty, reality it doesn't matter. The only person who can identify you and call for your arrest 'pardons' you when you speak with him. So why does it matter?

Though at the time in Helgen, during your execution is the whole point of my mentioning the way law is done in Tamriel. What happens after Helgen doesn't matter, since this debate was about the execution. You were guilty, so it was a legal execution.

and it does always apply. BUT, there is nothing to imply/prove guilt so it does not matter. I felt he 'pardons' you because he has no time to deal with a matter that has no real record of anything. And I recall him sounding sarcastic/surprised when you mention you were at Helgen. Seems to make me thing he might not have noticed or cared about you at that time, so does not care now.

It is the reason why in the first TG quest (I know it is a game thing but it works) you need to plant a ring on Brand whatever his name is. You need to make him look guilty for him to have any true problems with the law. Legality loses out to reality.

 

[DrunkenMage]

and it does always apply. BUT, there is nothing to imply/prove guilt so it does not matter.

It is the reason why in the first TG quest (I know it is a game thing but it works) you need to plant a ring on Brand whatever his name is. You need to make him look guilty for him to have any true problems with the law. Legality loses out to reality.

Except it doesn't matter. The point of it was for the Helgen execution.

But why do the guards in Riften, who are corrupt and actually are in Maven's pocket and do whatever she wants, are a model for your example of true problems with the law?

 

[Jeremius]

and it does always apply. BUT, there is nothing to imply/prove guilt so it does not matter.

It is the reason why in the first TG quest (I know it is a game thing but it works) you need to plant a ring on Brand whatever his name is. You need to make him look guilty for him to have any true problems with the law. Legality loses out to reality.

Except it doesn't matter. The point of it was for the Helgen execution.

But why do the guards in Riften, who are corrupt and actually are in Maven's pocket and do whatever she wants, are a model for your example of true problems with the law?

General T. only cared about Ulfric, so of course he would 'pardon' you, as you are no Ulfric. If that captain was alive, she would have had you executed likely.

IF nobody is paying attention to me, why should the events of Helgen matter at all after that? Is all I am saying.

 

[DrunkenMage]

General T. only cared about Ulfric, so of course he would 'pardon' you, as you are no Ulfric. If that captain was alive, she would have had you executed likely.

Possibly, though the Captain gets killed.

I was only proving that the "Guilty until proven innocent" thing does not get pulled unless there is something that leads to you being guilty. Once pardoned, none of the guilt part from Helgen matters so you do not need to prove your innocence.

Guilty until proven innocent is with all crimes. If you're suspected of something you can be arrested, get charged with something and what not. Though it is still why you're about to be executed, so afterwards it doesn't matter.

You join the Legion you're pardoned, you join the Stormcloaks you're still guilty, but doesn't matter since you force the Empire out. You don't join either side, doesn't matter because Tullius doesn't care.

Once pardoned of course it wouldn't matter. Since you just got pardoned.

 

[Jeremius]

General T. only cared about Ulfric, so of course he would 'pardon' you, as you are no Ulfric. If that captain was alive, she would have had you executed likely.

Possibly, though the Captain gets killed.

I was only proving that the "Guilty until proven innocent" thing does not get pulled unless there is something that leads to you being guilty. Once pardoned, none of the guilt part from Helgen matters so you do not need to prove your innocence.

Guilty until proven innocent is with all crimes. If you're suspected of something you can be arrested, get charged with something and what not. Though it is still why you're about to be executed, so afterwards it doesn't matter.

You join the Legion you're pardoned, you join the Stormcloaks you're still guilty, but doesn't matter since you force the Empire out. You don't join either side, doesn't matter because Tullius doesn't care.

Once pardoned of course it wouldn't matter. Since you just got pardoned.

agreed. Once out of helgen, Helgen no longer truly matters so I take it as being technically free from the mess from helgen.

 

[DrunkenMage]

agreed. Once out of helgen, Helgen no longer truly matters so I take it as being technically free from the mess from helgen.

Same thing with Oblivion, you were in Imperial jail. You escape at the same time the Emperor is assassinated, and no one questions it.

Law and justice in Tamriel is flawed.

 

[Raijin]

Guilty until proven innocent is with all crimes. If you're suspected of something you can be arrested, get charged with something and what not. Though it is still why you're about to be executed, so afterwards it doesn't matter.

You join the Legion you're pardoned, you join the Stormcloaks you're still guilty, but doesn't matter since you force the Empire out. You don't join either side, doesn't matter because Tullius doesn't care.

Once pardoned of course it wouldn't matter. Since you just got pardoned.

I could join the Imperial legion, take their ridiculous oath, and then join the Dark brotherhood to murder the Emperors cousin and the actual Emperor (Including the fake one).. Funny how nothing happens to me once I murder these important people.

 

[Jeremius]

agreed. Once out of helgen, Helgen no longer truly matters so I take it as being technically free from the mess from helgen.

Same thing with Oblivion, you were in Imperial jail. You escape at the same time the Emperor is assassinated, and no one questions it.

Law and justice in Tamriel is flawed.

I will agree with that, but the captain was still a b-word.

 

[DestroyerDevourMaster]

Here's a question since I'm still on the fence between the two, why fight to uphold such a clearly flawed legal system? As to why I'm asking now well this debate was lighting up my inbox

 

[Jeremius]

Here's a question since I'm still on the fence between the two, why fight to uphold such a clearly flawed legal system? As to why I'm asking now well this debate was lighting up my inbox

some people like it. It is all I can say.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I could join the Imperial legion, take their ridiculous oath, and then join the Dark brotherhood to murder the Emperors cousin and the actual Emperor (Including the fake one).. Funny how nothing happens to me once I murder these important people.

Not the first time the Legion has conspired to kill their Emperor.

Also you don't actually come forward and admit it, now do you? Funny how you're expecting something to happen, when the only people who can tie you to the murder are either the members of the Brotherhood, client, or they're dead.

 

[Jeremius]

I could join the Imperial legion, take their ridiculous oath, and then join the Dark brotherhood to murder the Emperors cousin and the actual Emperor (Including the fake one).. Funny how nothing happens to me once I murder these important people.

Not the first time the Legion has conspired to kill their Emperor.

Also you don't actually come forward and admit it, now do you? Funny how you're expecting something to happen, when the only people who can tie you to the murder are either the members of the Brotherhood, client, or they're dead.

guards do comment, asking about it...sort of.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Here's a question since I'm still on the fence between the two, why fight to uphold such a clearly flawed legal system? As to why I'm asking now well this debate was lighting up my inbox

Because even though it has flaws, it was still the best thing to happen to Tamriel. Also the cruel 'Guilty until proven innocent' is in all provinces, it predates Imperial law.

Imperial law is flawed the further you get from Cyrodiil, but it's better than the alternative. You remove Imperial authority, lawlessness and barbarism is common. Take a look at Skyrim, Windhelm is without Imperial authority for a short time. Racial segregation and the banishment of all Argonians.

The last time there was a drop in Imperial authority? Skyrim attack House Redoran of Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis. The time before that? Skyrim invaded High Rock and Hammerfell.

Law in Tamriel will always have flaws, goes with the setting. It isn't like you can put out an APB on a wanted criminal, or are able to be able to properly patrol large amounts of areas using horse back and on foot. Criminals are always in large supply, bandits operate in caves and forts, you can never truly bring fair justice and legal systems the further you get from Cyrodiil. A flawed legal system is better than no legal system.