Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

Most the the Imperial soldiers I encountered before joining the Stormcloaks were just the eager to kill a Stormcloak as a Stormcloak was to kill them.

it is war, that stuff happens, but what i do not get is Why try to kill me just for travelling with an imperial. in my opinion, the Stormcloaks are just as readily willing to kill the PC had the situation been reversed. so those who side with the Stormcloaks for the reason of One imperial captain wanting everyone she encounters dead, LET IT GO!

 

[Docta Corvina]

so those who side with the Stormcloaks for the reason of One imperial captain wanting everyone she encounters dead, LET IT GO!

A-BLOODY-MEN to that, Jeremius! We've heard that argument repeated ad nauseam by this point. And every time the counterpoint is made, it comes up again.

 

[Jeremius]

A-BLOODY-MEN to that, Jeremius! We've heard that argument repeated ad nauseam by this point. And every time the counterpoint is made, it comes up again.

thanks Docta Corvina, i also think that if Hammerfell were to hear that the Empire may be going to war with the Altmer Bullies again, they would ally with them to take it to the snobs.

 

[The Phoenician]

yet, how does attacking an imperial soldier who is trying be reasonable with them makes them the good guys?

That's not an issue of right or wrong. They are at war and escaping capture on enemy turf. Hadvar should have known better.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

I chose Stormcloaks. f***fing Imperials wanted to chop my head off! Couldn't forgive them for that!
Moreover, I have more faith in humans than I have in gods, so I don't like the Thalmors' attitude.

I swear what does that have to do with ANYTHING, so what ONE pissy little B****H wanted you dead, so what, you were captured with Ulfric, yeah you're being sent to the block but so have a lot of other people who had nothing to do with the Stormcloaks it's a war bad things happen to good people. and besides I thought Hadvar more than made up for the B****h.

 

[Janus3003]

Just adding on to the situation with Hadvar-
Like others have pointed out, Hadvar suggests that he could reason with the Stormcloaks, but they immediately attack. I tried following Ralof, and noticed that upon hearing the Imperials, he doesn't suggest anything of the sort. He's planning on fighting right off the bat.

And should anyone bring up the presence of an Imperial torture chamber, I recommend you take a look in the dungeons of the Palace of the Kings. You'll find some familiar tools down there.

 

[Kraad Vestru]

Just adding on to the situation with Hadvar-
Like others have pointed out, Hadvar suggests that he could reason with the Stormcloaks, but they immediately attack. I tried following Ralof, and noticed that upon hearing the Imperials, he doesn't suggest anything of the sort. He's planning on fighting right off the bat.

And should anyone bring up the presence of an Imperial torture chamber, I recommend you take a look in the dungeons of the Palace of the Kings. You'll find some familiar tools down there.

And that's why I never bring up the torture room as an argument for joining the Stormcloaks, but sides have them but none of them are as bad as the Silver Hand I don't see either side making rugs out of people, just saying. And Hadvar is more understanding than Ralof I expect him to talk first them act. And besides if you really hate the Captian like I do you just go with Ralof and get to kill her besides she has better armor...

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

That's not an issue of right or wrong. They are at war and escaping capture on enemy turf. Hadvar should have known better.

But the greater threat was Alduin. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[Raijin]

A) Created a rebellion faction to seize control of Skyrim from the shackles of a dying empire.Slayed the High King in an attempt to usurp the Throne of Skyrim He wants to be High King, whats wrong with that? The previous king proved that he was weak, and unable to defend himself in battle so why does this make Ulfric into a bad guy?

B) Fighting for independence from the empire.Unilaterally plunged Skyrim into a possibly unnecessary bloody civil war that irrefutably harms the population and resources of Skyrim. And the empire had nothing to do with this war that Ulfric created? Nah It couldn't be it. Ulfric is some mad tyrant that gets off by watching his fellow nords fight each other to the death, right? This war was created BECAUSE OF THE EMPIREs decision to ban the worship of talos. Ulfric couldn't watch his homeland get invaded by the Thalmor, which technically it is because they're snatching up people from the streets and from their homes, and imprisoning them or worst slaughtering them right then and there.
C) Fighting to restore the worship of Talos in Skyrim.Forced the Empire to actually enforce a previously toothless edict against the worship of Talos and enabled the Thalmor to seize, interrogate and torture the people of Skyrim. The empire gave in to the Thalmor by signing the treaty. Then Ulfric, the only man with courage, realized how dangerous the situation was, step up to the plate and told the empire and to their elven masters to take a hick.
D) Fighting to make Skyrim strong again by wanting to be High King.Fighting to make both the Empire and Skyrim weaker to fulfill his own narcissistic ambitions. You are wrong in so many ways, but you're free to voice your OPINION.

He's the only Jarl who actively assisted the Dovahkiin in stopping Alduin which saves not only all the people of Skyrim but of Tamriel as well.

While I borderline agree, most of the credit should be given to the blades, and to the greybeards along with their leader Paarthurnax.

 

[The Phoenician]

But the greater threat was Alduin. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Outside maybe. But any one wearing an opposing uniform is still the enemy.

 

[Dagmar]

A.)He killed Dead King Torygg to prove he was weak and by extension they Empire because the Empire was protecting him. The Civil War would have happened anyway Ulfric is not one to give up just because of a small road block. Skyrim was ready to begin a rebellion against the Empire over the White-Gold Concordant anyway Ulfric was just the antagonist.
B.)See aforementioned point about the war, I can't deny that it's has had an adverse affect on the population and the resources.

You have zero evidence that a civil war would have happened without Ulfric. You certainly can't say that people would have eventually rebelled because they are unhappy about the ban on Talos worship. They've been unhappy about that for over 20 years. The only change in this constant is Ulfric who has a personal vendetta against the Empire for its specific actions against him prior to the civil war.

Further you make it sound as if peaceful secession from the Empire would have been impossible when there are clues to the contrary in the game including Torygg's observed reactions and impressions of Ulfric at the ceremonial meeting of the Moot. By all accounts Torygg was young malleable and impressed by Ulfric. It's highly probable that he could have been persuaded to engage the Empire in negotations for the peaceful secession of Skyrim with Ulfric by his side. An ambitious egomaniac like Ulfric could never abide by that because it wouldn't have satiated his desire for power. He wants to be High King. It's the primary goal of his campaign regardless of his rhetoric. If it were otherwise the only way his failure to at least try to first pursue peaceful alternatives for independence can be explained is that he's monumentally stupid and insensitive to the death he brings down on all Nords with his rebellion. The former is far more plausible then the latter.

C.)The Edict was not toothless in the first place, they had to alienate Hammerfell because they would not live up to it. The fact that they had to do this to survive shows that it wasn't toothless, and the Thalmor would have cracked down on Skyrim eventually because it's where Talos was from the Civil War just sped up the process.

But for Ulfric the Thalmor would never have been able to insist on their presence and stricter enforcement of the ban on worship of Talos. Besides having to live under the ban the Nords in Skyrim have also been worshipping Talos for 20 over years anyway. It's referred to as being done in secret but if it's a secret it has to be one of the worst kept secrets in Tamriel. There are shrines to Talos adorned with flowers and offerings all over Skyrim including a shrine right across from the Gildergreen, the object for pilgrimages attracting people to Whiterun for the past 20 years, with Whiterun being the being the center of commerce for Skyrim. Then there's Heimskr screaming at the top of his lungs by said shrine ("Talos the Mighty! Talos the unerring! Talos the unassailable! To you we give Praise!"). Given the conspicuousness of the worshipping of Talos it strains credibility to believe that the Thalmor were unaware of what was going on in Skyrim for over 2 decades. Apparently they just didn't care enough to do anything about it. It's only after Ulfric comes out and openly challenges the ban that they pressure the Empire to let them patrol Skyrim to detain, interrogate and torture Nords suspected of worshiping Talos.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

Outside maybe. But any one wearing an opposing uniform is still the enemy.

Outside and inside. Alduin was such a force that Hadvar trying to reason with the Stormcloaks wasn't a bad move. They didn't have to be allies forever. Just until they got safely out of harms way and once they parted ways would be enemies again.

 

[The Phoenician]

Outside and inside. Alduin was such a force that Hadvar trying to reason with the Stormcloaks wasn't a bad move. They didn't have to be allies forever. Just until they got safely out of harms way and once they parted ways would be enemies again.

I Don't completely disagree with that. But we also know that Hadvar is a nice guy. But to those Stormcloaks he is just another imperial that just tried execute them and that they have been at war with for however long. The best he could have hoped for is to be taken prisoner.

 

[Jersey Dagmar]

I Don't completely disagree with that. But we also know that Hadvar is a nice guy. But to those Stormcloaks he is just another imperial that just tried execute them and that they have been at war with for however long. The best he could have hoped for is to be taken prisoner.

Dude, I don't even what you are getting at. Hadvar walked right up to them and tried to reason with them. The fact that his weapon wasn't even drawn should have told the Stormcloaks that he wasn't trying to be a threat. If Hadvar had rushed right in with his weapon drawn, I could understand them attacking him on sight.

 

[Tyrone]

Further you make it sound as if peaceful secession from the Empire would have been impossible when there are clues to the contrary in the game including Torygg's observed reactions and impressions of Ulfric at the ceremonial meeting of the Moot. By all accounts Torygg was young malleable and impressed by Ulfric. It's highly probable that he could have been persuaded to engage the Empire in negotations for the peaceful secession of Skyrim with Ulfric by his side.

Regardless of what King Torygg felt of Ulfric, I severely doubt the empire would just let skyrim be independent. The empire was just taken over abot 200 years ago by a warlord, Titus Mede I, who took it with force. Ulfric might be trying to take Skyrim by force and is coveting for a high seat of power, but he has another reason- he wants to restore the worship of Talos which was taken away by the empire after the treaty with the thalmor. Lots of nords wanted to rebel against the empire, and Ulfric was the one who was willing to risk his life for an independent skyrim. Why would Ulfric risk his life in a rebellion only to become just another jarl?

What High King Torygg says he would do in Soverngarde does not mean he would do it while he was still alive, the risks of leading a massive rebellion are of course huge.

 

[The Phoenician]

What I'm saying is that regardless of Hadvars noble intentions. They are still enemy soldiers. Alduins attack doesn't change that.

Should they they have attacked him with his sword sheathed? Probably not. But its still a huge risk to hope he will keep his word and not stab you in the back as soon as he gets a chance. But it really it doesn't matter because the rest of the opening sequence would have sucked if everybody decided to work together.

 

[Dagmar]

He wants to be High King, whats wrong with that? The previous king proved that he was weak, and unable to defend himself in battle so why does this make Ulfric into a bad guy?

If a person covets something that you have and kills you for it because you're weak and unable to defend yourself then that's pretty much the definition of a bad guy.

And the empire had nothing to do with this war that Ulfric created?

That's irrelevant. Ulfric started the war in a cold calculated manner by killing the High King, which he knows is a capital crime under Imperial law, and then ran back to Eastmarch to rally his Stormcloaks against the Imperial Legion that he knows will be coming after him for High Treason.

Ulfric is some mad tyrant that gets off by watching his fellow nords fight each other to the death, right?

He doesn't get off on it but he's largely indifferent to it. To him his ambitions for the seat of High King take priority over the lives of the hundreds if not thousands of Nords that will die in a civil war.

Ulfric couldn't watch his homeland get invaded by the Thalmor

Ulfric is the reason why the Thalmor are allowed to patrol Skyrim. For over 20 years prior to his open defiance of the ban and Stormcloak rebellion Nords continued to worship Talos and there were no Thalmor patrols. This is reaffirmed several times by NPC dialogues in the game and refuted by none.

Then Ulfric, the only man with courage, realized how dangerous the situation was, step up to the plate and told the empire and to their elven masters to take a hick.

Ulfric, driven by ambition, made the situation dangerous. It wasn't dangerous for over two decades. He conspired and killed the High King to trigger a civil war in a bid to become High King of Skryim.

You are wrong in so many ways, but you're free to voice your OPINION.

I've provided background from the game and the lore to support my opinions. You've provided nothing but rhetoric, misinformation and Uflric's self-serving claims for yours. Some opinions are more informed than others.

 

[Dagmar]

Regardless of what King Torygg felt of Ulfric, I severely doubt the empire would just let skyrim be independent.

If Torygg and Ulfric present a united front then the Empire may not have any choice. As the legitimate sovereign of Skyrim Torygg can bring the support of most if not all of the remaining Jarls to that cause. If the High King tells the Empire he intends to lift the ban on the worship of Talos regardless of the White-Gold Concordat then there's a significant chance that the Empire will be forced to renounce Skyrim much in the way it did Hammerfell. It's a far more practical and prudent solution to maintaining it's treaty with the Aldmeri Dominion than waging an uncertain armed conflict with a significantly more united Nord army that they could end up losing anyway.

Lots of nords wanted to rebel against the empire.

This assertion is based on.....?

 

[morguen87]

they're both jerks. I'm more curious what the canon resolution is going to be for future installments in the series. I'd probably play that side if nothing else for a sense of continuity, since...like i sad, they're both jerks. I don't want to build a character who's like the hero of the Storm Cloaks and have the next game refer to the empire crushing the rebellion. or vice versa.

 

[Raijin]

If a person covets something that you have and kills you for it because you're weak and unable to defend yourself then that's pretty much the definition of a bad guy.

Toygg had a choice of getting dethroned by refusing Ulfric's challenge or fight for the death to keep his status and he choose to fight (I give him props for doing that), and then lost. How does that make Ulfric a bad guy? Shouldn't Skyrim be run by the strong?

That's irrelevant. Ulfric started the war in a cold calculated manner by killing the High King, which he knows is a capital crime under Imperial law, and then ran back to Eastmarch to rally his Stormcloaks against the Imperial Legion that he knows will be coming after him for High Treason.

It couldn't be that Ulfric's motivation was caused by the deceiving empire that denied his people along with none nords who worships Talos right? I tell you what let the government take away your freedom to use the internet ,and then come back to me (when you're privately using the internet) and tell me how it feels to have your freedom taken away.

He doesn't get off on it but he's largely indifferent to it. To him his ambitions for the seat of High King take priority over the lives of the hundreds if not thousands of Nords that will die in a civil war.

Unfortunately war is not like red roses. Sometimes war is the beginning of recovery. Sometimes you can't reason with people so you must take 'em out by force. Yes Ulfric desires to be High King. If he feels that he can do a better job then the previous kind so let him.

Ulfric is the reason why the Thalmor are allowed to patrol Skyrim. For over 20 years prior to his open defiance of the ban and Stormcloak rebellion Nords continued to worship Talos and there were no Thalmor patrols. This is reaffirmed several times by NPC dialogues in the game and refuted by none.

Ulfric did not sign a treaty to ban the worship of Talos. It as was Emperor Titus Mede II. The Thalmor are there because of the empire, Not Ulfric. If you encounter one of the Thalmor Justiciars they will tell you that they're there to enforce the the ban of Talos, and to make sure that the empire wasn't lying to their elvan masters. Nowhere did they even mention of Ulfric.

Ulfric, driven by ambition, made the situation dangerous. It wasn't dangerous for over two decades. He conspired and killed the High King to trigger a civil war in a bid to become High King of Skryim.

While I do agree Ulfric is driven by ambition. His compassion is his homeland, Skyrim. He strives to make his home country independent and free from empire control. Unfortunately that makes that you must dethrone or exile Jarls that are heavily influenced by the empire.

I've provided background from the game and the lore to support my opinions. You've provided nothing but rhetoric, misinformation and Uflric's self-serving claims for yours. Some opinions are more informed than others.

I provided screenshots (Most to which I've taken from the game) and video. It's 10x better then your wiki links that anyone could go register and edit out information. Don't sit there telling me that I've provided nothing because I have. Go back and checkout my previous post if you don't believe me.[/quote]