Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Ozan]

I realize that this is likely not his intention at all, but the more I read Ozan's very articulate posts about supporting the Stormcloaks and opposing the Empire in every way possible, the more depressing the whole picture gets. Like, Tamriel is really just one clusterfl*ff of assorted asshattery at every turn that needs to just get eaten by Mehrunes Dagon already so the All-Maker can start over again.

We all know that if that happened, the Khajiit would be the only ones to survive and found a new society.

It is hard to fight for unity when those above are divided by coin. He sympathizes for Imperial as he knows she fights for change and difference... but change seems ever so far when we pause to see what we are surrounded by.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

OK y'all I need some help here

As part of my new years resolution I promised myself that this year I will have at least 1 character that is heavily devoted to being part of the Imperial legion.

I just created a Redguard character named Cyrus. Granted I created him for the fun of it, and didn't bother to think of any background stories until now.

Born and raised in Hammerfell. I was thinking that he was caught convincing others to rethink their stance against the Empire, and how he wants Hammerfell to be united with the Empire again. One of his best trust worthy friends alerted him that the authorizes were looking for him, and how his crimes were high enough to be called treason against Hammerfell. If caught he would be certain to be executed for his crimes against Hammerfell. He fled Hammerfell and that's how he got caught by the legion crossing the border.

Does this make any lore sense?

He was pissed off at the legion for wanting to wrongfully execute him, but apparently as days goes past that it becomes a distant memory.

Looks like Cyrus may have been introduced to Tamriels first ever version of stereoids.

Anyhow, I don't see how Cyrus trying to suade others on his view of the Empire would be of any particular concern to the authorities of Hammerfell. Unless you're suggesting he was trying to form some sort of protest to join back with the Empire, then I suppose I could see how that would make more sense.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

It is hard to fight for unity when those above are divided by coin. He sympathizes for Imperial as he knows she fights for change and difference... but change seems ever so far when we pause to see what we are surrounded by.

Ulfric however is drven by power, which is ever more dangerous than coin and far more susceptible to corruption. If it's change you seek, this war has none to offer.

 

[Ozan]

Ulfric however is drven by power, which is ever more dangerous than coin and far more susceptible to corruption. If it's change you seek, this war has none to offer.

Ozan does acknowledge his lust for power, but so long as his facade is maintained and his granting of what he promises to maintain power, it matters not. When he is comfortable and is no longer in need of the people, then the people will rise again. Then his power would be forfeit and an end goal achieved.

 

[Raijin]

Looks like Cyrus may have been introduced to Tamriels first ever version of stereoids.

The beef in Hammerfell tends to do that :X

Anyhow, I don't see how Cyrus trying to suade others on his view of the Empire would be of any particular concern to the authorities of Hammerfell. Unless you're suggesting he was trying to form some sort of protest to join back with the Empire, then I suppose I could see how that would make more sense.

I don't know much regarding to Hammerfell other than the war. I don't know the laws and etc. Yes my character was trying to form a group to have Hammerfell unite with the Empire, but was unsuccessful. The authorities found out and was going to arrest Cyrus for treason, and to silence him. His friend alerted him and he escaped the authorities grasp and headed for skyrim. The rest you know.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[feliciano182]

Ozan does acknowledge his lust for power, but so long as his facade is maintained and his granting of what he promises to maintain power, it matters not. When he is comfortable and is no longer in need of the people, then the people will rise again. Then his power would be forfeit and an end goal achieved.

So Skyrim would effectively have to go through three wars, and no guarantee of change, peace and stability within Tamriel for people to be safe.

I must say, the post-Star Wars generation sure can't fit in their head that the words "Empire" and "Rebellion" don't have static meanings

 

[Ozan]

So Skyrim would effectively have to go through three wars, and no guarantee of change, peace and stability within Tamriel for people to be safe.

I must say, the post-Star Wars generation sure can't fit in their head that the words "Empire" and "Rebellion" don't have static meanings

It is better to have little chance and suffer than to have no chance and obey. Perhaps it is worst to obey those who are already obedient.

 

[feliciano182]

It is better to have little chance and suffer than to have no chance and obey. Perhaps it is worst to obey those who are already obedient.

Chance ?

 

[Docta Corvina]

Ah, but dearest Ozan, not all of us agree that we are "obeying" those who are already "obedient". What may appear as "obedience" at the most superficial level is actually constant preparation and poise. There is a time to strike and a time to work in the shadows before the strike.

As a very old text that I hold quite dear says, "All warfare is based on deception".

The unabbreviated form:

兵者，詭道也。故能而示之不能，用而示之不用，近而示之遠，遠而示之近*

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

- Sun-Tzu, The Art of War

Disclaimer: I have no idea how accurate the Chinese text is because I don't read it. Regardless, the sentiment expressed in the English remains salient.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

It is better to have little chance and suffer than to have no chance and obey. Perhaps it is worst to obey those who are already obedient.

This metaphor seems to contradict the point you are trying to make out. By signing the W.G.C the Empire essentially gave everyone a small chance to fight back, while at the same time having to suffer the consequences. If they hadn't signed it however, they would have no chance and instead of playing along with the Thalmor they truly would be forced to obey them.

 

[Moris]

Ah, but dearest Ozan, not all of us agree that we are "obeying" those who are already "obedient". What may appear as "obedience" at the most superficial level is actually constant preparation and poise. There is a time to strike and a time to work in the shadows before the strike.

It has already been 30 years, though. Many are impatient. They wish to see change within their own lifetimes.

The Empire may grow stronger as it prepares for future war. But this is also true of the Aldmeri. What makes the Empire believe that it is growing stronger at a faster rate? Or is it that the sacrifices of war are easier to accept when the next generation has to make them?

Where is the advantage in waiting? Except that I will not have to fight?

---

ETA: Another thing to consider is that if the wait is too long, all those skilled in warfare who are experienced in the ways of the Aldmeri, may be dead or too old to fight and offer their tactical insights. The reverse may not be true for the Altmer, as they are a longer living race.

 

[Ozan]

Ozan cares not for the Empire. Wars of struggle and strife within one nation alone, then surprise once this hostile nation invades?

Ozan admits he cannot understand the Imperial struggle. However, the Imperial cannot claim to know the struggle of others. They sold land, for safety. They sold their citizens, for safety. They sold their own GODS, for safety. And Ozan is still unsure what the Empire wishes to save. Do they struggle to keep the poor oppressed on the waterfront? Do they struggle to allow bandits and highwaymen to terrorize the country side? Do they struggle to maintain their empty image?

When desperation is common is when conflicts emerge. Hammerfell and Skyrim host such conflicts. Soon, more regions shall struggle.

Give the people bread, and they shall be fed. Give the people reason, and they shall prosper. Give them nothing, and they shall take everything. And it will be JUST.

 

[Docta Corvina]

It has already been 30 years, though. Many are impatient. They wish to see change within their own lifetimes.

The Empire may grow stronger as it prepares for future war. But this is also true of the Aldmeri. What makes the Empire believe that it is growing stronger at a faster rate? Or is it that the sacrifices of war are easier accept when the next generation has to make them?

It's been thirty years and based on what we can infer about the lifespans of regular humans in Tamriel, it's barely a single generation that's been "raised" so to speak for further warfare. The devastation of the Great War went well beyond the burning of crops and toppling of buildings. It destroyed a great deal of men (and women) of fighting age. Many of the Great War vets you encounter in Skyrim show their age and their wear, physically and even mentally. We don't know the precise strength of the Dominion at this point, we only know how the Great War itself progressed and where the two sides were at its finale. With a Tamriel plurality that according to the lore was eager to agree to peace at seemingly any cost (which includes of course Skyrim and other lands not directly affected by the AD's total war offensive), we can fairly assume that the destruction was quite thorough in its savagery. I think that many in Cyrodiil are war-weary, having witnessed the horrors of all variations. And would probably recoil at the idea that they are complacent or happy to let the next generation pick up the proverbial tab. Many of them know all too well what's at stake, and would do everything they can to make sure that the next time would be the last time. This is not unlike how our own "Great War", which at one time was supposed to be "the war to end all wars". Clearly that wasn't the case and all indicators are that that won't be the case for Tamriel.

This is of course all part of the extended speculation we have going on here, but it seems to me that the Empire also has additional hope: the Dominion, while currently formidable in its own right, is not quite what it once was given its chosen strategy of proxy warfare. If it could roll over everyone without consequence, I think we would have seen a different approach, a far more direct one. Ondolemar can say that the Empire is only existing because the Thalmor allows it to, but I think that is to some degree posturing on his part. The Dominion itself took serious losses and while we again don't know the extent of their resources now in 201, it's a strong possibility that they are not in a completely enviable position either. I can see how this would galvanize some in Skyrim (ie., the Stormcloaks) to agitate for direct engagement with them now and while many even in Cyrodiil could theoretically sympathize with the underlying sentiment, there is still much to be done. It seems clear to me that reconciliation will have to occur to maximize chances in the next conflict. Whether that happens or not is yet to be seen.

 

[Moris]

Ozan cares not for the Empire. Wars of struggle and strife within one nation alone, then surprise once this hostile nation invades?

Ozan admits he cannot understand the Imperial struggle. However, the Imperial cannot claim to know the struggle of others. They sold land, for safety. They sold their citizens, for safety. They sold their own GODS, for safety. And Ozan is still unsure what the Empire wishes to save. Do they struggle to keep the poor oppressed on the waterfront? Do they struggle to allow bandits and highwaymen to terrorize the country side? Do they struggle to maintain their empty image?

When desperation is common is when conflicts emerge. Hammerfell and Skyrim host such conflicts. Soon, more regions shall struggle.

Give the people bread, and they shall be fed. Give the people reason, and they shall prosper. Give them nothing, and they shall take everything. And it will be JUST.

Indeed. Unwise is the ruler who ignores the struggles of his people. Even more unwise is the ruler who ignores the struggles of those who are the least in his lands, for the least are the most revolutionary, as they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, and are the first among the exploited to discover that only violence pays. For them there is no compromise, no possible coming to terms, for it is simply a question of relative strength.

 

[Ozan]

((Did the good Docta refer to the Empire as the post WWI Germany? Soon to be NAZI Germany?

Does that prove my point?))

 

[Docta Corvina]

((Did the good Docta refer to the Empire as the post WWI Germany? Soon to be NAZI Germany?

Does that prove my point?))

Actually, that was not so much my intention as I was trying to emphasize the horror it wrought for all who participated. I'm not interested in pointing to individual nations' body counts and situations as I am in pointing to the overall sick dread such horrific warfare inflicted. And how it was sadly naive to ever have deemed it "the war to end all wars".

 

[Moris]

Actually, that was not so much my intention as I was trying to emphasize the horror it wrought for all who participated. I'm not interested in pointing to individual nations' body counts and situations as I am in pointing to the overall sick dread such horrific warfare inflicted. And how it was sadly naive to ever have deemed it "the war to end all wars".

I agree that direct parallels don't work well. I'm sure Bethesda took some pains to make sure they wouldn't.

But people really DID believe that the Great War could only happen once. So there was a lot of posturing and a lot of ignoring and a lot of pretending about what was happening in Weimar Germany. Because another war like the Great War, especially within anyone's lifetime, was unthinkable.

No one in Tamriel believes for a moment there can't be another Great War, and I expect many believe that it's inevitable. The psychological landscape of all the participants is really very different.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I agree that direct parallels don't work well. I'm sure Bethesda took some pains to make sure they wouldn't.

But people really DID believe that the Great War could only happen once. So there was a lot of posturing and a lot of ignoring and a lot of pretending about what was happening in Weimar Germany. Because another war like the Great War, within anyone's lifetime, was unthinkable.

No one in Tamriel believes for a moment there can't be another Great War, and I expect many believe that it's inevitable. The psychological landscape of all the participants is really very different.

Indeed. When I invoke historical references, I'm more than likely doing so on a poetic whim. Direct, precisely mapped parallels won't be found here.

I don't know if people in Tamriel necessarily themselves believed that another conflict wouldn't follow the Great War. I didn't mean to suggest as much with my statements. I think there's actually dialogue among veterans directly to the contrary actually. My point was that the people in Cyrodiil are especially cognisant of just how truly terrible such a confrontation was, and are not eager to dive into another one - regardless of what people in our history thought after our own "Great War". It's not that they (people in Cyrodiil) lack empathy for others in the Empire, but they have every concern that things could be significantly worse if war happened again before perceived chances were maximized.

As it's been noted before on these threads, Skyrim didn't see the war in the way that Cyrodiil experienced it full on. It's somewhat easier for many in the former province to agitate for direct confrontation given that vantage point.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Indeed. Unwise is the ruler who ignores the struggles of his people. Even more unwise is the ruler who ignores the struggles of those who are the least in his lands, for the least are the most revolutionary, as they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, and are the first among the exploited to discover that only violence pays. For them there is no compromise, no possible coming to terms, for it is simply a question of relative strength.

The Empire hasn't ignored them. The whole war is litterly Ulfric taking advantage of the peoples aggression for his own political agenda. The Empire has always allowed free worship of Talos behind the Thalmors back, this is hinted to us from the very start of the game and later confirmed from more sources. Ulfric is what invited the Thalmor to prosecute people for it. Skyrim had a ruler named High king Torygg whom had enough respect for Ulfric to listen to him, this obviously didn't satisfy him enough so he kills him. In Ulfric's very own hold you see segregation, poverty, and the neglect to acknowledge their struggles. These are the exact same things you accuse the Empire to be doing yet you wish to put a power driven tyrant with the same principles on the throne of Skyrim. I don't see the logic in this.

 

[Moris]

Indeed. When I invoke historical references, I'm more than likely doing so on a poetic whim. Direct, precisely mapped parallels won't be found here.

I don't know if people in Tamriel necessarily themselves believed that another conflict wouldn't follow the Great War. I didn't mean to suggest as much with my statements. I think there's actually dialogue among veterans directly to the contrary actually. My point was that the people in Cyrodiil are especially cognisant of just how truly terrible such a confrontation was, and are not eager to dive into another one - regardless of what people in our history thought after our own "Great War". It's not that they (people in Cyrodiil) lack empathy for others in the Empire, but they have every concern that things could be significantly worse if war happened again before perceived chances were maximized.

As it's been noted before on these threads, Skyrim didn't see the war in the way that Cyrodiil experienced it full on. It's somewhat easier for many in the former province to agitate for direct confrontation given that vantage point.

Oh, no question people are war-weary. People are always war-weary. Very few actively seek it out and prefer it over peace. It is amazing the degree of oppression and poverty people will tolerate in order to avoid war.

It's true that Skyrim had not suffered nearly as much as Cyrodil. I get that.

But it's not always the case that those who suffered most are least likely to desire more violence, or that those who suffered least, will be most willing to engage next. We can look at our own Great Wars if we want to examine the possibilities.

In order to be willing to suffer the injuries of another war, people must have a reason. To rise out of their complacency, they must feel that their leader is speaking with their voice, and giving words to their own struggles. This is the big tragedy of Ulfric Stormcloak. That he is the one leader in Skyrim able to inspire his people to action, and yet in order to support the idea of the Empire, he must be sacrificed.