Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Not only is her gender noteworthy, but her race is additionally. She's an example of a double-oddity in the Skyrim presentation of the Legion. Her background also strikes me as telling. After she mentions growing up in an Orc stronghold, she continues with "That's right. An Orc stronghold. Kept to ourselves. Lived as our ancestors would have wanted. Wasn't enough for me, though. I left. Didn't want to end up as the third wife of some lowly chieftain."

She suggests that her gender in such a setting put her at a disadvantage, at the very least a perceived one. And struck out on her own. She will go on to say in conversation that she sought to join the Legion. I don't think she says anything more especially detailed about that, but I think it helps bolster the idea that it was certainly an option for women. How she was treated in the army is a separate question. But she stands as additional anecdotal evidence, along with the other three we know about. In the meantime, I'll keep reviewing the lore for more examples.

Orc women are actually the most equally treated people to men you'll probably ever see in any society in the ES. Look under Society in Lore:Orc - UESPWiki for a more thorough explanation. I'm actually sick and don't want to type a whole lot.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Orc women are actually the most equally treated people to men you'll probably ever see in any society in the ES. Look under Society in Lore:Orc - UESPWiki for a more thorough explanation. I'm actually sick and don't want to type a whole lot.

It's interesting, most certainly. Whatever the reality of her particular Stronghold's culture, she apparently found it less than appealing and left it behind. Though I must say, I don't blame her for not wanting to be just another wife. She intrigues me as a female character who has struck out on her own in such a fashion, finding her way in the world via her skill at the forge. It's admirable. She's not the only "independent" woman in the game, for sure. But it's always notable when they do appear.

And also, feel better soon! I have a bad sore throat at the moment myself. I think it's the beginning of a cold. :S

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

It's interesting, most certainly. Whatever the reality of her particular Stronghold's culture, she apparently found it less than appealing and left it behind.

Well every stronghold is based on the same codes and traditions as any other Stronghold. Some people just want something more than this and venture out to find a life different from the one they grew up in.

Though I must say, I don't blame her for not wanting to be just another wife. She intrigues me as a female character who has struck out on her own in such a fashion, finding her way in the world via her skill at the forge. It's admirable. She's not the only "independent" woman in the game, for sure. But it's always notable when they do appear.

I admire the Orcs for their strong capacity to be independent and resilient despite their hardships. Which is why I take great interest in their history and culture. Many people don't seem to actually know a whole lot about the Orcs and assume they're just ugly pigmen who are great at smashing people with 2h maces. But really they're a much more sophisticated race than that who are just struggling to have a place in the world.

And also, feel better soon! I have a bad sore throat at the moment myself. I think it's the beginning of a cold. :S

I've been sick since Thursday, today I just feel worst for some reason >.< Hopefully your sore throat is nothing more than that ;c

 

[Moris]

Never debated that joining the Legion wasn't an option for women. Since there are three women actively serving in the Legion at the beginning of the game (Rikke, plopsty Captain, and an archer who kills the thief), obviously women are not prevented from joining.

What I wanted to know was why there were so few. We know about at least one dead female legionnaire. Now, the good Docta and Ozan are finding female ex-legionnaires. Good find. I'd be interested in hearing about others. But again, we knew the Legion didn't have a blanket policy of denying entry to women, so that's not up for debate.

Again, what I wanted to know is why it was that when I fought and when I visited the camps and the outposts and the castle, I saw nothing but men (except one female legate)? I don't know why some folk (not you, Docta; you remain -- as ever -- cool) are taking it as though I've suggested that their manly war god wears pink lace panties.

The first two times I joined the Imperial side, I didn't actually notice consciously, though I always got the impression that the Legion was a bit too full of pricks. But the third time, it was jarring. I did notice. And I wondered if that was why I always found playing the Legion side to be so, um, distasteful.

So I wanted to know what it was about the Legion that would deter women from joining.

Feliciano, Dagmar has told us that the models for female Legionnaires exist in game (and indeed they must: the archer at the very beginning is female). So the tools to implement their appearance in game were fully developed. At some point, though, a choice was made to limit their appearance. My question is simply: why?

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Again, what I wanted to know is why it was that when I fought and when I visited the camps and the outposts and the castle, I saw nothing but men (except one female legate)? I don't know why some folk (not you, Docta; you remain -- as ever -- cool) are taking it as though I've suggested that their manly war god wears pink lace panties.

The first two times I joined the Imperial side, I didn't actually notice consciously, though I always got the impression that the Legion was a bit too full of pricks. But the third time, it was jarring. I did notice. And I wondered if that was why I always found playing the Legion side to be so, um, distasteful.

So I wanted to know what it was about the Legion that would deter women from joining.

Feliciano, Dagmar has told us that the models for female Legionnaires exist in game (and indeed they must: the archer at the very beginning is female). So the tools to implement their appearance in game were fully developed. At some point, though, a choice was made to limit their appearance. My question is simply: why?

Dagmar only pointed out that there where female Legionaries, who are Legates, in the game data. There are no female footsoldiers. Only male footsoldiers are in the game data. Also after going on youtube to see which gender the archer was at the beginning, he's clearly a male.

 

[Ozan]

Was Ozan just conscripted to find other female legionnaires, current or past? Ozan shall do no such thing!

 

[Docta Corvina]

I didn't mean to imply a dispute about women's admission to the ranks. I just think that given that we were discussing the number of female Legionnaires that we had encountered or heard tell of, looking at examples that were forgotten would be useful in getting a more complete picture. It's still obviously a great disparity overall.

If anything, it interests me that female Legionnaires are more represented by anecdotal evidence. Aside from Rikke and the Captain, we now have the apothecary's daughter, Ghorza, and the Dawnstar Jarl Brina Merilis (thanks for the reminder Ozan!). It's additionally interesting to me that among the entire bunch that we have seen so far, there is only one Imperial woman.

I suppose that at the end of all of this, I'm wondering if it's more of a case of women being or feeling dissuaded from joining at all, or if it's more of a case of them being rejected after they have sought out enlistment and presumably been tested for combat readiness (which could in theory also encourage them away from even trying). The lore dealing with the Legion makes a point to impress upon us the very stringent code of excellence expected, which clearly includes great physical ability (mastery of heavy armor, blunt weaponry, etc). There are height differences between the races, as well as some other differences in physical makeup (ie. the burlier Nords vs. the much more slight-built Bretons). This tends to explain some observable racial tendencies/preferences toward certain fighting styles. And perhaps it's a part of the reality in the Legion as well. Perhaps, for legitimate or illegitimate reasons (overt sexism) dependent upon each circumstance, the Legion does not judge a high number of women as physically capable of meeting their combat "standards". It's not a particularly satisfying possibility - but as I read more about the history and defining characteristics of the Legion, it seems to be one of the more conceivable. I can only speculate after all.

I do think it's noteworthy that of the now five Legionnaire women we know of, two are Nords and one is an Orc - races that are widely renowned for their skills as great and formidable warriors, which arguably seems to be true of both genders as well.

 

[Ozan]

((What about the woman who is attacked when first entering Markarth? Wasn't she an Imperial spy for Tullius?))

 

[Dagmar]

Orc women are actually the most equally treated people to men you'll probably ever see in any society in the ES. Look under Society in Lore:Orc - UESPWiki for a more thorough explanation. I'm actually sick and don't want to type a whole lot.

In some ways they are, in others they're not. There's gender specific polygamy in Orc Strongholds as well. Marital rights in general in Orc Strongolds are a bit primitive.

Dagmar only pointed out that there where female Legionaries, who are Legates, in the game data. There are no female footsoldiers.

No I was pointing out everything you need to generate female rank and file Legionnaires is already in the game data. While there may not be any actual female legionnaire actors, the data to create them is already in the game (body meshes, face meshes, and legionnaire armor meshes all for females). It's why your character can be a female and wear Imperial armor.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to create the actor from the game data as all it requires is copying a male legionnaire and replacing the male specific data with the female counterpart data. A member of the Bethesda development team could do it in less than 30 minutes so attributing it to game mechanics isn't an extremely persuasive argument, especially given that this is probably exactly what they did to create the female Stormcloak soldiers. It points to something more deliberate and intentional on the part of the developers.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

No I was pointing out everything you need to generate female rank and file Legionnaires is already in the game data. While there may not be any actual female legionnaire actors, the data to create them is already in the game (body meshes, face meshes, and legionnaire armor meshes all for females). It's why your character can be a female and wear Imperial armor.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to create the actor from the game data as all it requires is copying a male legionnaire and replacing the male specific data with the female counterpart data. A member of the Bethesda development team could do it in less than 30 minutes so attributing it to game mechanics isn't an extremely persuasive argument, especially given that this is probably exactly what they did to create the female Stormcloak soldiers. It points to something more deliberate and intentional on the part of the developers.

I suppose you're right. Even so, I don't see the lack of female legionnaire footsoldiers as anything vastly significant. The theories in Docta's latest post do seem like a more likely scenerio though.

 

[Ozan]

It is indeed important. Just as important as race, clearly though most , including Ozan, do not mind. In the realm of debate, everything is worth arguing over.

Perhaps there is still a way to include both...

 

[Moris]

We have a female imperial mage:

File:SR-npc-Imperial Mage 02.jpg - UESPWiki

I wouldn't expect that excessively stringent physical requirements would deter women from entering as mages. And look! Here is one. Alas, I'm pretty sure we only see her in Helgen, so she probably dies.

I don't remember seeing a lot of imperial legion mages of either sex, though. Looks like they only show up in Helgen.

 

[Moris]

I didn't mean to imply a dispute about women's admission to the ranks. I just think that given that we were discussing the number of female Legionnaires that we had encountered or heard tell of, looking at examples that were forgotten would be useful in getting a more complete picture. It's still obviously a great disparity overall.

If anything, it interests me that female Legionnaires are more represented by anecdotal evidence. Aside from Rikke and the Captain, we now have the apothecary's daughter, Ghorza, and the Dawnstar Jarl Brina Merilis (thanks for the reminder Ozan!). It's additionally interesting to me that among the entire bunch that we have seen so far, there is only one Imperial woman.

I suppose that at the end of all of this, I'm wondering if it's more of a case of women being or feeling dissuaded from joining at all, or if it's more of a case of them being rejected after they have sought out enlistment and presumably been tested for combat readiness (which could in theory also encourage them away from even trying). The lore dealing with the Legion makes a point to impress upon us the very stringent code of excellence expected, which clearly includes great physical ability (mastery of heavy armor, blunt weaponry, etc). There are height differences between the races, as well as some other differences in physical makeup (ie. the burlier Nords vs. the much more slight-built Bretons). This tends to explain some observable racial tendencies/preferences toward certain fighting styles. And perhaps it's a part of the reality in the Legion as well. Perhaps, for legitimate or illegitimate reasons (overt sexism) dependent upon each circumstance, the Legion does not judge a high number of women as physically capable of meeting their combat "standards". It's not a particularly satisfying possibility - but as I read more about the history and defining characteristics of the Legion, it seems to be one of the more conceivable. I can only speculate after all.

I do think it's noteworthy that of the now five Legionnaire women we know of, two are Nords and one is an Orc - races that are widely renowned for their skills as great and formidable warriors, which arguably seems to be true of both genders as well.

Ooops. Sorry. I was kinda replying to you and Feliciano at the same time. [Feliciano said: "I think it's a little bonkers to say that because one doesn't see women among The Legion ranks, which is crap (I can think of two off the top of my head)..."]. And it apparently wasn't clear at all who I was addressing with which point.

In any case, I may be able to come around to the idea that the Legion has some sort of culture which dissuades women from enrolling and/or some very stringent physical requirements. It's certainly the experience of at least one of my dragonborns. But that's my extremely personal reaction to in-game experience.

 

[Ozan]

Where are Imperial Mages now? Are there Stormcloak Mages? What of battlefield diversity?

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Where are Imperial Mages now? Are there Stormcloak Mages? What of battlefield diversity?

Most Nords have a distrust for magic, so it wouldn't be likely to see many, if any, in the ranks of the Stormclaoks. As for Imperial Mages I saw quite a few at Helgen and I think maybe some outside of it as well.

 

[Raijin]

The Nords may distrust in magic, but they have no problems taking an advantage of magical enchantments Look at Ulfrics Axe for a prime example

 

[Moris]

Nords don't like magic, it's true. Though, in reality, everyone in Skyrim is a bit nervous around spellcasters, including, it seems, other mages.

I was quite taken aback when I was travelling with Marcurio and we had just blasted our way through a couple of foolish wolves. I still had my hands raised, preparing another spell, and he said, "That spell looks dangerous. Keep your distance!"

Marcurio. Dude. It's muffle.

Everyone has their moments of paranoia.

--

Ulfric's Axe of Cowardice, if I remember correctly, is enchanted with fear. I followed him and Galmar after the Battle for Solitude once. They engaged in an epic struggle against a family of horkers, who kept attempting to flee, only to return with fearsome horker-like aggression when the effect wore off. Of course, horkers don't move with the greatest of agility, and Ulfric's axe does not do very much damage. Galmar had to actually kill the animals. But he seemed loathe to enter the water. The whole event was comical, and lasted about 15 minutes.

I love Ulfric. He is my favorite character to follow. He always seems to get into a really hilarious variety of predicaments, and I'm sure that axe has a lot to do with it.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Yeah, now that I think about it, I can't recall seeing Imperial battlemages outside of Helgen. We of course know they were a part of the Legion's forces, but in Skyrim they do seem few and far between. Interesting. I wonder if it does sort of come with the territory. That is to say, I wonder if they would be brought from Cyrodiil (or elsewhere in the Empire) or part of the local recruitment effort. If it's the latter, given the nature of the comparatively shaky relationship between the Nords and magic, I suppose it makes sense to some extent.

 

[Ozan]

Ozan intended to make a point concerning archers and mages and warriors with shields or what have you.

It all seems watered down.

 

[feliciano182]

PERSONAL OR IDEOLOGICAL REASONS TO JOIN YOUR FACTION

So, beyond the borders and frontiers that separate Tamriel, far away from the space occupied by Nirn, and into the real world, are there are any reasons of yours to join The Legion or The Stormcloaks ?

Mine can usually be summed up in one word --> Patriotism.

I hate it.

I believe it is moronic, if not backwards, to tell people that they owe themselves to a country or a nation, I dislike it beyond reason, as I dislike right-wing nutjob nationalists, and The Stormcloaks fit that ticket quite well, which repels me quite as much as their racism.

The Legion on the other hand, seems much more open, and it is funny to discover that the history of The Empire has been a rather fascinating development between different types of cultures basically learning to live with each other, it is rather comforting to know that a governing faction can be held together by something greater than a flag or a coat of arms, but by a symbol of unity, which is what The Empire stands for.

Of course, there's always the......"relaxed" laws on beheadings ............but nothing is perfect.