Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DovahChick]

I dunno, being a self-centered barbarian ass tends to be a turn off for me. Nothing in those videos does anything for me, Raijin. Hate to break it to you.

I don't care what "most" fangirls like or whatever. I'm very discerning in my tastes and brawn and deep voices aren't enough to seal the deal for me. I value intelligence and humility and even if humility is somewhat lacking (whazzup Marcurio ), I'm willing to work with that. Tullius is pragmatic, not overly emotional, reserved, capable and intelligent. He's also a silver fox. And I make no apologies for finding him sexy. I vastly prefer Imperial men anyway, for their looks, intelligence and culture. I never was a fan of the axe-swinging, knuckle-dragging barbarian type and not just in Elder Scrolls games.

Ulfric is far from a barberian. Just because he is a nord dosent make him lawless or any of that plops! In fact due to the fact that he is a JARL he is a law maker!

 

[Docta Corvina]

Ulfric is far from a barberian. Just because he is a nord dosent make him lawless or any of that pl***! In fact due to the fact that he is a JARL he is a law maker!

What Raijin posted struck me as examples of that archetype. Which I don't care for. Nor do I care for Ulfric. The fact is that he is indeed very shrewd and calculating, but that doesn't make me like him magically either. I don't care for him as a character and not even his physical traits and aspects can change that. That was my point.

I've seen how he runs Windhelm. I'm not impressed. As a political type, he should know better.

 

[DovahChick]

What Raijin posted struck me as examples of that archetype. Which I don't care for. Nor do I care for Ulfric. The fact is that he is indeed very shrewd and calculating, but that doesn't make me like him magically either. I don't care for him as a character and not even his physical traits and aspects can change that. That was my point.

I've seen how he runs Windhelm. I'm not impressed. As a political type, he should know better.

But you dont get it! Ulfric is a honourable man! He trained up with the grey beards for years (which shows patience), he fights for talos (which shows that he stands up for what he believes in) and he has a greater cause than the imperials. Ulfric quoted: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must." Where as the imperials cause is pretty much 'Coz the high elves said so!'

 

[Docta Corvina]

But you dont get it! Ulfric is a honourable man! He trained up with the grey beards for years (which shows patience), he fights for talos (which shows that he stands up for what he believes in) and he has a greater cause than the imperials. Ulfric quoted: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must." Where as the imperials cause is pretty much 'Coz the high elves said so!'

I have played through the Civil War questline many times and have been embarking on a Stormcloak playthrough and I know what I've seen and heard, from both sides. As well as from speaking to all manner of NPCs on related subjects. It's not that I "don't get" anything, as much as it would be dumb and pointless for me to say to you that you just "don't get it".

Not sure if you've read much of this thread, but if not, I think you should. You'll get a much broader and added perspective on the situation. It's not as simple as "Ulfric is awesome, he wants to save the world, yay! And I know this cuz he said so!". If you really think that the Imperials are in love with the Thalmor, I would say that the lore/in-game evidence is not being engaged enough. There are very blatant and strong indications in the way of testimony from Imperial-side NPCs that talk about their disgust with the Thalmor and even offer tacit confirmation that they're thinking about the next time they'll engage them in battle. In other words, they're already looking toward another fight with them, because they know the way things are currently can't and won't stand forever. Nor do they want it all to.

Ulfric has taken a huge risk by inciting the rebellion. He himself states that he cannot risk full-on war with the Empire. If he can't risk that, I can't fathom what hope he has of taking on the Dominion with his own forces, which is at best roughly half of Skyrim. That's something of what characters like Rikke are talking about when they say they (as Nords) fight for Skyrim and support the Empire - because it's NOT mutually exclusive. And just because Ulfric's pretty speeches say it is, doesn't make it so. Nothing in this storyline is that simple.

 

[Raijin]

I dunno, being a self-centered barbarian ass tends to be a turn off for me. Nothing in those videos does anything for me, Raijin. Hate to break it to you.

I don't care what "most" fangirls like or whatever. I'm very discerning in my tastes and brawn and deep voices aren't enough to seal the deal for me. I value intelligence and humility and even if humility is somewhat lacking (whazzup Marcurio ), I'm willing to work with that. Tullius is pragmatic, not overly emotional, reserved, capable and intelligent. He's also a silver fox. And I make no apologies for finding him sexy. I vastly prefer Imperial men anyway, for their looks, intelligence and culture. I never was a fan of the axe-swinging, knuckle-dragging barbarian type and not just in Elder Scrolls games.

I've posted those videos was meant to be a joke I know it wasn't going do anything to change your mind. It was for pure fun

Tullius is far from Intelligent. He said it himself during Battle for solitude "You realize this is exactly what they wanted." he continues on "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion." He had this information, and he continued to play in favor to the Thalmor. Tullius is just another typical warmonger who loves war. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Tullius and the word humility doesn't seem to mix well either. Whats wrong with wielding an axe? What makes a sword so much appealing?

 

[DovahChick]

I have played through the Civil War questline many times and have been embarking on a Stormcloak playthrough and I know what I've seen and heard, from both sides. As well as from speaking to all manner of NPCs on related subjects. It's not that I "don't get" anything, as much as it would be dumb and pointless for me to say to you that you just "don't get it".

Not sure if you've read much of this thread, but if not, I think you should. You'll get a much broader and added perspective on the situation. It's not as simple as "Ulfric is awesome, he wants to save the world, yay! And I know this cuz he said so!". If you really think that the Imperials are in love with the Thalmor, I would say that the lore/in-game evidence is not being engaged enough. There are very blatant and strong indications in the way of testimony from Imperial-side NPCs that talk about their disgust with the Thalmor and even offer tacit confirmation that they're thinking about the next time they'll engage them in battle. In other words, they're already looking toward another fight with them, because they know the way things are currently can't and won't stand forever. Nor do they want it all to.

Ulfric has taken a huge risk by inciting the rebellion. He himself states that he cannot risk full-on war with the Empire. If he can't risk that, I can't fathom what hope he has of taking on the Dominion with his own forces, which is at best roughly half of Skyrim. That's something of what characters like Rikke are talking about when they say they (as Nords) fight for Skyrim and support the Empire - because it's NOT mutually exclusive. And just because Ulfric's pretty speeches say it is, doesn't make it so. Nothing in this storyline is that simple.

I have (like you) played through both of the civil war quest points of veiw, talked to various people on the forums and in real life. I still side with Ulfric. Now you said that I shouldnt say 'I know this coz he said so' but what other evidence can I get? Do you realize that this is just a game? That Ulfric and Tullius are not real people actually having a war? Do you realize that you are not Dovahkiin? It is a game and I go by what the game tells me. You cant just imply things because he DOSENT HAVE A REAL MIND!

Anyway, in the end, to me, it all comes down to one thiing Ulfric and I have in common (IN THE GAME), and that is; we dont want to take any more of the elves bullplops. Many Nords died and the great war and we dont want their deaths to be for nothing.

Oh and also you say that the empire one day want to fight with the dominion again why think they could win? If they fought the dominion again THEY WOULD GET SMASHED!

 

[Docta Corvina]

I've posted those videos was meant to be a joke I know it wasn't going do anything to change your mind. It was for pure fun

Tullius is far from Intelligent. He said it himself during Battle for solitude "You realize this is exactly what they wanted." he continues on "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion." He had this information, and he continued to play in favor to the Thalmor. Tullius is just another typical warmonger who loves war. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Tullius and the word humility doesn't seem to mix well either. Whats wrong with wielding an axe? What makes a sword so much appealing?

How is Tullius unintelligent? If anything, he's pointing out that he can see past the curtain the Thalmor had tried to put up. He's not stupid. He may be reserved and a bit cynical, but he's not an idiot. If anything, he's quite pragmatic and his rough-around-the-edges aspect he has as a character has everything to do with his frustration at the situation - knowing that the divisions and the pouring of men and resources into the current conflict benefits the Thalmor. Dunno about you, but that would chafe my ass too.

I honestly don't know what you would want him to do. Just surrender, knowing that that also would put the Thalmor in a better position by proxy? Seriously. Tullius doesn't get enough credit, like ever. It's really too bad.

Before you try to argue now that I hate Nords, check yo'self. I love Brynjolf, among others. A few others. But he's not a "stereotypical" Nord. And I like that. I have every problem with grunting Neanderthal types, be they Nords, Imperials, Bretons, Redguards, whatever. This even applies to real life, lol.

Man, and how did this become a debate about what I find hot in fictional pixelated game men? Relevance to overall topic, there is none.

 

[DovahChick]

How is Tullius unintelligent? If anything, he's pointing out that he can see past the curtain the Thalmor had tried to put up. He's not stupid. He may be reserved and a bit cynical, but he's not an idiot. If anything, he's quite pragmatic and his rough-around-the-edges aspect he has as a character has everything to do with his frustration at the situation - knowing that the divisions and the pouring of men and resources into the current conflict benefits the Thalmor. Dunno about you, but that would chafe my ass too.

I honestly don't know what you would want him to do. Just surrender, knowing that that also would put the Thalmor in a better position by proxy? Seriously. Tullius doesn't get enough credit, like ever. It's really too bad.

Before you try to argue now that I hate Nords, check yo'self. I love Brynjolf, among others. A few others. But he's not a "stereotypical" Nord. And I like that. I have every problem with grunting Neanderthal types, be they Nords, Imperials, Bretons, Redguards, whatever. This even applies to real life, lol.

Man, and how did this become a debate about what I find hot in fictional pixelated game men? Relevance to overall topic, there is none.

Tullius is an idiot due to the fact that he can not just understand the nord beliefs! He has to get Rikke to explain EVERY SINGLE THING TO HIM! This shows how narrow minded Tullius is.

 

[DovahChick]

Oh and also why side with someone who would have had happily chopped your head off at the beggining of the game?

 

[Docta Corvina]

I have (like you) played through both of the civil war quest points of veiw, talked to various people on the forums and in real life. I still side with Ulfric. Now you said that I shouldnt say 'I know this coz he said so' but what other evidence can I get? Do you realize that this is just a game? That Ulfric and Tullius are not real people actually having a war? Do you realize that you are not Dovahkiin? It is a game and I go by what the game tells me. You cant just imply things because he DOSENT HAVE A REAL MIND!

Anyway, in the end, to me, it all comes down to one thiing Ulfric and I have in common (IN THE GAME), and that is; we dont want to take any more of the elves bullplops. Many Nords died and the great war and we dont want their deaths to be for nothing.

Oh and also you say that the empire one day want to fight with the dominion again why think they could win? If they fought the dominion again THEY WOULD GET SMASHED!

Okay? You side with Ulfric. That's great and all, I side with the Empire. I can sympathize with some of what the Stormcloaks want, but at the end of the day I can't fully acquiesce to their side. And man, I had NO idea this was just a game. You just blew my mind. Come on now...this thread is here to debate these things, but if we're not going to acknowledge lore and the historical contexts, it's hard to make the most out of this. You can choose to believe all that he says and take it as gospel, but after reading texts and speaking to NPCs of all extractions (including the man himself), I have come to a different conclusion.

Not sure which side you're referring to at the last part, but I agree, the Stormcloaks would get smashed if they took on the Dominion by themselves. Dagmar and others have offered additional details as to why any sort of invasion would be very difficult to fathom. If you mean the Empire, no one is suggesting they're wanting to fight them tomorrow or even ten years from now (~201). Obviously. They're still recuperating from being thoroughly ravaged in the Great War 30 years back. But no one likes the Thalmor except the Thalmor. And they have another showdown coming to them eventually.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Tullius is an idiot due to the fact that he can not just understand the nord beliefs! He has to get Rikke to explain EVERY SINGLE THING TO HIM! This shows how narrow minded Tullius is.

He's from Cyrodiil, was appointed to be the military governor of Skyrim. He literally doesn't know or understand all Nord beliefs/ways, very similar to the way that many of us wouldn't necessarily understand or totally appreciate the cultural ways of a foreign land we were sent to or otherwise found ourselves in. It's really not that crazy of a thing to imagine. I believe that's why Rikke is there in the first place, to be a cultural liaison for him. It makes it all much more believable. By the end of the questline, he admits that though he may not fully understand the Nord culture and its ways, he has come to respect it. That should be sufficient, all things considered.

 

[DovahChick]

OKay? You side with Ulfric. That's great and all, I side with the Empire. I can sympathize with some of what the Stormcloaks want, but at the end of the day I can't fully acquiesce to their side. And man, I had NO idea this was just a game. You just blew my mind. Come on now...this thread is here to debate these things, but if we're not going to acknowledge lore and the historical contexts, it's hard to make the most out of this. You can choose to believe all that he says and take it as gospel, but after reading texts and speaking to NPCs of all extractions (including the man himself), I have come to a different conclusion.

Not sure which side you're referring to at the last part, but I agree, the Stormcloaks would get smashed if they took on the Dominion by themselves. Dagmar and others have offered additional details as to why any sort of invasion would be very difficult to fathom. If you mean the Empire, no one is suggesting they're wanting to fight them tomorrow or even ten years from now (~201). Obviously. They're still recuperating from being thoroughly ravaged in the Great War 30 years back. But no one likes the Thalmor except the Thalmor. And they have another showdown coming to them eventually.

Near the last part of my reply I CLEARLY stated that the IMPERIALS would get smashed by the dominion any time! So why don't you take time to read that part again. And in the game the imperials do say that they want to fight the dominion in the future. And BTW if you know this is just a game stop acting like this is real life politics!

 

[DovahChick]

He's from Cyrodiil, was appointed to be the military governor of Skyrim. He literally doesn't know or understand all Nord beliefs/ways, very similar to the way that many of us wouldn't necessarily understand or totally appreciate the cultural ways of a foreign land we were sent to or otherwise found ourselves in. It's really not that crazy of a thing to imagine. I believe that's why Rikke is there in the first place, to be a cultural liaison for him. It makes it all much more believable. By the end of the questline, he admits that though he may not fully understand the Nord culture and its ways, he has come to respect it. That should be sufficient, all things considered.

Well maybe if he just stopped and listened to rikke he would get it! I am not from skyrim and I get it! This is just me pointing out that he is not as smart as you say.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Near the last part of my reply I CLEARLY stated that the IMPERIALS would get smashed by the dominion any time! So why don't you take time to read that part again. And in the game the imperials do say that they want to fight the dominion in the future. And BTW if you know this is just a game stop acting like this is real life politics!

Operating on a few hours sleep, FTW. Apologies. It's not the end of the world, nor a grievous offense. No need to treat it as such. But no, we have no precise indication of the strength of the AD right now. Manpower alone puts a Stormcloak invasion at a distinct disadvantage, Ulfric indirectly admits as much. As for the Empire itself, they're still rebuilding. Anyone who took on the AD in open war now quite possibly would get smashed. That's why no one is going there.

As they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. We're in this thread to discuss and debate and unfortunately that involves facts. You're obviously free to state your opinion, but if you don't like me or anyone else referring to lore or evidence in game, then maybe this isn't the best place to spend time.

 

[Harc]

Both place as inferior to the might of the thalmor!

 

[Docta Corvina]

Well maybe if he just stopped and listened to rikke he would get it! I am not from skyrim and I get it! This is just me pointing out that he is not as smart as you say.

Realizing what the cultural norms are and actively internalizing them to the point of appreciating them are entirely different things. I agree that as the military governor, it would have served him well to be a bit more open-minded and receptive. But guess what? He's human. And somewhat stubborn as an older character. No one's perfect.

 

[DovahChick]

Operating on a few hours sleep, FTW. Apologies. It's not the end of the world, nor a grievous offense. No need to treat it as such. But no, we have no precise indication of the strength of the AD right now. Manpower alone puts a Stormcloak invasion at a distinct disadvantage, Ulfric indirectly admits as much. As for the Empire itself, they're still rebuilding. Anyone who took on the AD in open war now quite possibly would get smashed. That's why no one is going there.

As they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. We're in this thread to discuss and debate and unfortunately that involves facts. You're obviously free to state your opinion, but if you don't like me or anyone else referring to lore or evidence in game, then maybe this isn't the best place to spend time.

Listen, I am fine with people stating their opinion. What I DO however have a problem with is people saying things that are false, which I belaieve you have been doing all along. You have had some valid points in the past but now they have turned to plops. If you have any valid points to share with me... Well I am happy to read them!

 

[Docta Corvina]

Listen, I am fine with people stating their opinion. What I DO however have a problem with is people saying things that are false, which I belaieve you have been doing all along. You have had some valid points in the past but now they have turned to pl***. If you have any valid points to share with me... Well I am happy to read them!

What have I said was false? If you're going to accuse me of stating falsehoods, then do the right thing and point them out to me. If I am factually false about something, then I like to know so I can investigate further. One thing many of us have striven for in this ongoing debate is keeping close to the evidence. Obviously there is only so much and we'll all do with it what we will. But when we state our opinions, we are inviting scrutiny. That's just how it all works.

Accusations of falsehoods and claims "turning to plops" are empty and really don't do much to support any of your overall arguments. Getting personal doesn't need to occur if you're solid on your observations, facts and contextual understanding.

 

[Harc]

The empire have well trained troops, more troops, better leaders, and better equipment. The imperial legion is an example of a military system. While the Stormcloaks represent rebellion and treasonous acts that will only lead to their demise.

 

[DovahChick]

Falsehoods you have stated: Ulfric is a barberian, I dont aknowladge law, I cant stand the heat... wait a minute, a lot of these false things you have been saying have been directed at me, not ulfric? Well then! If we are going to start playing that game I can just start directing my arguments toward you! Or we COULD stay on topic and you could consider my opinions before you start typing? You choose.