Are the Thalmor really that bad?

[Daelon DuLac]

This argument seems to be getting circular. Is "Evil" not a matter of perspective based on a culture's morality? Just because a Nord considers them to be "Evil" doesn't mean that everybody else does. Certainly the Altmer don't (on the whole) consider them evil. They are serving a purpose.

Let's use a modern example:
When the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, the US did not consider it an "evil" action. Many Iraqi's and Afghani's did consider it evil.
A moral justification based on a societal assumption does not "good" or "evil" make.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the Thalmor. I can make oodles of cash early in the game by killing off groups of them. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy when I seem them. (Same with the Vigilan!).

 

[Daelon DuLac]

Considering most of your logic was "I can RP this" in many other posts.

I could, never said I would though. logic dictated I could do anything, as my worlds are not the canon world and that means whatever I do means nothing to overall canon/lore.

What Mage is trying to say..
You ask a question: 'proof me this' 'proof me that' and people come up with internet links, ingame books and lore. You refuse to acknowledge them and just say they aren't good enough as proof. You hold on to your point of view, regardless of what someone else says.
If you refuse to change opinions from the beginning, if you refuse to be proven wrong, then there is no valid reason for entering a debate.

...All the facts have been given to you, Jeremy. And the people who did so are getting tired of accurate information being denied because you only seem to acknowledge what sounds good to you. There is evidence that the Thalmor are still a threat. The evidence has been shown. You don't have to agree with Mage or anyone on here, but don't say you need 'accurate information' to convince you, because that information has been already given.

But it's DrunkenMage! What would a debate be without him? After all, since when do "facts" have anything to do with a good "opinion"! That's the American Way! (sorry all you folks outside the US, not meant as a slam to you, more to us - forgive me )

 

[Anouck]

I could, never said I would though. logic dictated I could do anything, as my worlds are not the canon world and that means whatever I do means nothing to overall canon/lore.

What Mage is trying to say..
You ask a question: 'proof me this' 'proof me that' and people come up with internet links, ingame books and lore. You refuse to acknowledge them and just say they aren't good enough as proof. You hold on to your point of view, regardless of what someone else says.
If you refuse to change opinions from the beginning, if you refuse to be proven wrong, then there is no valid reason for entering a debate.

...All the facts have been given to you, Jeremy. And the people who did so are getting tired of accurate information being denied because you only seem to acknowledge what sounds good to you. There is evidence that the Thalmor are still a threat. The evidence has been shown. You don't have to agree with Mage or anyone on here, but don't say you need 'accurate information' to convince you, because that information has been already given.

But it's DrunkenMage! What would a debate be without him? After all, since when do "facts" have anything to do with a good "opinion"! That's the American Way! (sorry all you folks outside the US, not meant as a slam to you, more to us - forgive me )

I try to figure out whether you are bashing them Murricans or people outside the US? lol

 

[Daelon DuLac]

What Mage is trying to say..
You ask a question: 'proof me this' 'proof me that' and people come up with internet links, ingame books and lore. You refuse to acknowledge them and just say they aren't good enough as proof. You hold on to your point of view, regardless of what someone else says.
If you refuse to change opinions from the beginning, if you refuse to be proven wrong, then there is no valid reason for entering a debate.

...All the facts have been given to you, Jeremy. And the people who did so are getting tired of accurate information being denied because you only seem to acknowledge what sounds good to you. There is evidence that the Thalmor are still a threat. The evidence has been shown. You don't have to agree with Mage or anyone on here, but don't say you need 'accurate information' to convince you, because that information has been already given.

But it's DrunkenMage! What would a debate be without him? After all, since when do "facts" have anything to do with a good "opinion"! That's the American Way! (sorry all you folks outside the US, not meant as a slam to you, more to us - forgive me )

I try to figure out whether you are bashing them Murricans or people outside the US? lol

As a "Murrican", I would hope I'm bashing us! Rest assured, I've got plenty of opinions that have absolutely no basis in fact and there's no way your ever going to change 'em.

 

[The OP3RaT0R]

Yes, the issue does depend on whether one is a man or mer; but as an observer who is neither, I still dislike the Thalmor. The Empire, while predominantly human, accepts everyone and a lot of elves and men are fine with the idea of not undoing creation.

 

[Anouck]

But it's DrunkenMage! What would a debate be without him? After all, since when do "facts" have anything to do with a good "opinion"! That's the American Way! (sorry all you folks outside the US, not meant as a slam to you, more to us - forgive me )

I try to figure out whether you are bashing them Murricans or people outside the US? lol

As a "Murrican", I would hope I'm bashing us! Rest assured, I've got plenty of opinions that have absolutely no basis in fact and there's no way your ever going to change 'em.

Oh, but that is what I said. You can hold on to your opinions, as long as you don't deny facts. You can say 'Yes the sky is blue, but I still think it is ugly'. But what some people do, is saying: 'NO, the sky is not blue. It is green. It is propaganda and that is why I think it is ugly'.

 

[Zanaif]

All I'm gonna say is that the Septim empire was mostly accepting of all the different races whereas the thalmor only seem to care about themselves. I'm not so sure it is an argument of good vs. evil as much as it is arrogance and racism vs different arrogance and racism caused by the original bit of arrogance and racism.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

I try to figure out whether you are bashing them Murricans or people outside the US? lol

As a "Murrican", I would hope I'm bashing us! Rest assured, I've got plenty of opinions that have absolutely no basis in fact and there's no way your ever going to change 'em.

Oh, but that is what I said. You can hold on to your opinions, as long as you don't deny facts. You can say 'Yes the sky is blue, but I still think it is ugly'. But what some people do, is saying: 'NO, the sky is not blue. It is green. It is propaganda and that is why I think it is ugly'.

Ah, but denial of the facts is one of the tennents (sic) of American style opinion. If I say the sky is green, regardless of the facts, to me, it is green, and no-one will be able to tell me or convince me otherwise even if the evidence is there in front of my face.

 

[The OP3RaT0R]

This discussion isn't about anyone's opinion on the real world. Can we get back on topic?

 

[DrunkenMage]

"We underestimated the Thalmor, and they destroyed us." - Delphine

"They smashed us with ease during the Great War." - Delphine

"There's no worse enemy to humankind in Tamriel. The Empire barely survived the last war. The Thalmor don't intend to lose the next one." - Delphine

I beseech any and all citizens of this renowned Empire to heed my words! The Thalmor must be stopped, before it is too late. - Rising Threat

"What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores." - Ulfric Stormcloak

"Unless the Empire stands together, the Thalmor will destroy us all." - Hadvar

Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War. - Skyrim Loading Screen

So now I run. Like a hare from the hound, I run. Always moving, rarely resting, never sleeping. But the Thalmor dog my every move. Where will I go? How will I escape their grasp? I honestly don't know. The only thing I now understand for certain is this: if the agents of the Aldmeri Dominion cannot have your soul, then they will take your very life.
My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. Remember me. For soon I will be dead. - Flight from the Thalmor

"And I've seen the face of evil. It was in the air above Sentinel on the Night of Green Fire." - Legate Fasendil

There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed. - Great War

They're a threat. Many who underestimated them were destroyed.

 

[Daelon DuLac]

This discussion isn't about anyone's opinion on the real world. Can we get back on topic?

 

[NENALATA]

A thought just crossed my mind earlier, and well here we are.

Are the Thalmor and Aldmeri really that bad? I was thinking about it and aren't they just making a bid for power? Not unlike the one that Tiber Septim made when he was conquering Tamriel? How is that different to what the Aldmeri Dominion is doing or are trying to do?

Just a thought.

Opinions?

@Genocide

Good thread. This is nice I like it. No, I don't expect most people to understand the Thalmor's logic. It's interesting watching some of these guys trying to grasp where Thalmor are coming from. Kind of like being in a maze and you keep walking past the finish line and never even know it. Or Blue's Clues in the thinking chair.

The only thing I'm going to really contribute towards this argument is some of you guys mean well, however you're a little too 'hung up' on this Good vs Evil thing. That's it ~ all you get.

I shall look forward to seeing how this one turns out.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Huh? Bad is an adjective. It describes something. Bad smell, bad manners, bad intentions, bad taste, bad hair, bad breath, etc, etc... bad people... Thalmor... see?

From the dictionary:

2. Having a wicked or EVIL character; MORALLY reprehensible.

If that doesn't describe the Thalmor in Skyrim then I don't know what does. Enlighten me.

but you can do bad things without being "bad people". like Anti-heroes. They often do extreme/bad things, but are actually heroes. they would be "Bad people" but are actually good in their motives, but their actions are morally reprehensible.

Alright, so picking your nose and flinging the booger at someione is bad, agreed. The Thalmor, I'm afraid, are guilty of quite a bit more than booger flinging, with nothing good to balance it out that I can think of. Can you give me an instance in Skyrim where a Thalmor saves the day... or even helps to save the day? I can't, but that don't mean there isn't one.

I have had random thalmor patrols save my life in battles many a time on the road.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

To be totally honest, I've always seen the Thalmor as a parallel to the Nazis. (I know, a few of you just groaned aloud, you jerks.) With that thinking in mind, the idea of the individual versus the organization is academic at best. Is the individual Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor necessarily evil? Maybe, maybe not. Is the Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor as a whole evil? I would say yes. Yes, I realize the Thalmor are an agency within the Dominion, but many people use the terms interchangeably, albeit incorrectly.

I think any nation or body of people who believe in their superiority over everyone else is wrong. I also think forcibly getting those you deem "inferior" to bend their knee to you is wrong. Imposing your beliefs on others is also notably wrong, even if it's done more for political shock and awe than anything. If a nation in the real world were to do this, they would be considered wrong.

So, as far as I'm concerned, yeah, the Thalmor (the extreme faction within the Dominion) are definitely evil. Also, I'm not going to argue semantics about the meaning of bad, evil, or wrong. That's just silly and belongs in a philosophy course while discussing Socrates' definition of piety.

So because they are easily dispatched that makes them somehow less evil and corrupt? Interesting concept.

When I read this, I immediately thought of every bad guy in the Indiana Jones movies.

Whether imposing beliefs is bad or not can be another debate. It can be bad, but you can't say imposing beliefs is bad without imposing your belief. See what I mean?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

proof of their army? Proof of their "almighty power"? anything to make them sound like more than just jokes.

You're joking right? You're pulling our leg on this one.

Nope. I am a dwemer at heart, reasoning and logic beats fanaticism based off of lore or passion any day.

Lmao. You must be the guy who wanted to burn all the books in AC 2 XD

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

This argument seems to be getting circular. Is "Evil" not a matter of perspective based on a culture's morality? Just because a Nord considers them to be "Evil" doesn't mean that everybody else does. Certainly the Altmer don't (on the whole) consider them evil. They are serving a purpose.

Let's use a modern example:
When the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, the US did not consider it an "evil" action. Many Iraqi's and Afghani's did consider it evil.
A moral justification based on a societal assumption does not "good" or "evil" make.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the Thalmor. I can make oodles of cash early in the game by killing off groups of them. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy when I seem them. (Same with the Vigilan!).

This argument seems to be getting circular. Is "Evil" not a matter of perspective based on a culture's morality? Just because a Nord considers them to be "Evil" doesn't mean that everybody else does. Certainly the Altmer don't (on the whole) consider them evil. They are serving a purpose.

Let's use a modern example:
When the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, the US did not consider it an "evil" action. Many Iraqi's and Afghani's did consider it evil.
A moral justification based on a societal assumption does not "good" or "evil" make.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the Thalmor. I can make oodles of cash early in the game by killing off groups of them. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy when I seem them. (Same with the Vigilan!).

Perspective does not make up completely whether something is good or evil. I think we can both agreethat shooting an infant in the head is evil whether the person doing it views it as such or not.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

again, Thalmor are just likely blowing hot air and are nothing in the grand scheme of Skyrim.

 

[Writes-Many-Posts]

In my humble modest mortal and puny opinion, I think anybody against Ulfric's ideals should be ready to drive the Thalmor out of Skyrim as well. (Please don't throw at me statements of Thalmor+Empire=Oathed BFFs, I am just not skilled enough to reply ) As Ulfric favors Nords above other races, the Thalmor do the same to Altmer and, like I heard in another thread (sorry to the wise persn whose name I can't remember) no regime or powerful faction that favors only part of the population is good. I will be honest... If enemies did yield, I would spare a thousand falmer that could later kidnap my wife before sparing a Justiciar...

I would actually say to the Justiciar:

"Fight or flight?"

Give them to choose their life. Give them the choice that they never gave their captives. Just because another person makes a lowly decision doesn't mean you should step down and be like them. Sure, the person could later kill your spouse or your children and perhaps it would be justifiable to exact revenge. I may be viewed by this whole statement as a passive person, but in my mind if you show your enemy your cards and hand, and spare them perhaps a little of you will rub off on them. I have forgiven bullies in my past and they have since become good people and we are on good terms.

But again, that's my views. And only I can change them when I want to.

A keyboard again!


First of all, wow... You have forgiven a bully? I never had the chance to do so, but I am not sure I would if I could... I am not sure if it would be wise to spare a Thalmor. They seem to be specially made for the "No more, I yield!" on their knees and then stand up and attack you (like bandit and thies, who also fit in that scenery. But like you said, our opinion should only be changed by ourselves. To me, the Thalmor seem to be a mix of Nazism and Inquisition (although this time it is the other way around, the "non-believers" are persecuting the "believers" even though they call them heretics) and to me, those seem to be nearly unforgivable... To me, at least.

 

[Hildolfr]

Whether imposing beliefs is bad or not can be another debate. It can be bad, but you can't say imposing beliefs is bad without imposing your belief. See what I mean?

The quoting looks to have gotten all...broken.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying, but you're positing your opinion based on the idea that actions have no inherit morality which would lead us to a much bigger philosophical debate. But, of course, there is a level of ambiguity.

Regardless, having an opinion and sharing it is not imposing anything. Sitting on the subway and speaking to someone about their religion isn't subjugating them. However, jumping up while on the subway with a gun and forcing everyone to say a prayer in your religion is.

 

[DrunkenMage]

again, Thalmor are just likely blowing hot air and are nothing in the grand scheme of Skyrim.

Except they are a major part in the grand scheme of Skyrim and future TES games/lore. So that kind of contradicts what you're saying.