Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Do you not understand how oppression works? You subjugate a people and hold them by the throat so they cannot do anything against you.

They are doing what they can. You act like they are sitting around. No they are in communication with Brunwulf Free-Winter who is trying to get something resembling equality.

and yet they still live in a slum that they could have fixed a long time ago themselves to get that feeling of "You do not like us, so we will make our own equality, without you treating us like your equals."

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The funny thing is the Thalmor didn't actually have the power to enforce that ruling... Until the Markarth incident occurred.

fixed that with the correct problem.

Thank you for correcting my words. But still the point stands there. He created a problem that just so happens to help his ambition to become High King.

actually igmund's family created the problem by promising something they had no power to do anything about in the first place.

 

[Anouck]

who are they helping? I do not know of an instant where they say they donated food or coins to the stormcloak cause? just working for the city is not working for the rebellion.

Oooh the sweet irony. The hypocrisy...

The Thalmor don't allow us to worship our own Gods! They force their believes down our throats. Lets revolt!

WHAT?! You disagree with the Stormcloaks? How dare you not sharing our superior opinion? How dare you not donating your money to the rebels?! What? You live in a getto because we put you there, only because you are a dark elf? Well, Skyrim belongs to the Nords!

Am I the only one who hears the error?
Also; war gets funded by taxes. And guess who also pays taxes? The Dunmer...

and likely everyone else in windhelm. it is not just the Dunmer who are paying the taxes. besides if the Dunmer do not like the way things are, they should fix it themselves by fixing the grey quarter, not complaining until you get someone who will help you for just asking for their help.

You keep justifying racism. Don't. You are better than that.

You keep going in circles. First you say people have to participate and pay taxes. When someone says the Dunmer do that, you say: yeah, like everybody else.
How can you not see the error in this? What you basically just did, is confirming my point of view. Yes, the Dunmer pay taxes, like everybody else. So why can't they live in normal houses, like everybody else.

And how dare you say that it is their responsibility to fix the grey quarter? You put people in a getto because of their race. Their race. Look at what you are defending here. You defend racial segregation. And of course Skyrim is just a game, but I hope you don't actually agree with this in RL.

How can you force them to live in the grey quarter, a slum named after them, and then tell them to fix it? The reason why they have to live there, is because they are considered second rank citizens. They are meant to live in less quality than the others. They live in bad conditions because they were forced to live in bad conditions.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Oooh the sweet irony. The hypocrisy...

The Thalmor don't allow us to worship our own Gods! They force their believes down our throats. Lets revolt!

WHAT?! You disagree with the Stormcloaks? How dare you not sharing our superior opinion? How dare you not donating your money to the rebels?! What? You live in a getto because we put you there, only because you are a dark elf? Well, Skyrim belongs to the Nords!

Am I the only one who hears the error?
Also; war gets funded by taxes. And guess who also pays taxes? The Dunmer...

and likely everyone else in windhelm. it is not just the Dunmer who are paying the taxes. besides if the Dunmer do not like the way things are, they should fix it themselves by fixing the grey quarter, not complaining until you get someone who will help you for just asking for their help.

You keep justifying racism. Don't. You are better than that.

You keep going in circles. First you say people have to participate and pay taxes. When someone says the Dunmer do that, you say: yeah, like everybody else.
How can you not see the error in this? What you basically just did, is confirming my point of view. Yes, the Dunmer pay taxes, like everybody else. So why can't they live in normal houses, like everybody else.

And how dare you say that it is their responsibility to fix the grey quarter? You put people in a getto because of their race. Their race. Look at what you are defending here. You defend racial segregation. And of course Skyrim is just a game, but I hope you don't actually agree with this in RL.

How can you force them to live in the grey quarter, a slum named after them, and then tell them to fix it? The reason why they have to live there, is because they are considered second rank citizens. They are meant to live in less quality than the others. They live in bad conditions because they were forced to live in bad conditions.

I am not telling them to fix it. I am saying that if the Dunmer are hated so much by the nords/stormcloaks, they should not wait around for the Empire to win in order to have any kind of equality.

 

[Rimfaxe96]

And guess what: the nazis never literally said they wanted to exterminate the jews. After the war, the german soldiers said 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' (we really didn't know).
It is naive to think Ulfric would actually tell you if he was planning to do this.

[germanhistorynerd] Yes, the soldiers did know. Hitler wrote it all down what he planned to do with and what he thought of Jews in his book "Mein Kampf" ("My fight") which was released long before he climbed up the political ladder. And based upon his idiotic theories were also all the lessons children in school had about the facial characteristics of a Jewish face and much more idiocy. The soldiers said it because they feared for the lives, and the residents said it because of fear for their lives and part of them probably really didn't know due to ignorance (plus asking any officials about this subject might have you killed back then as well, so why bother).[/germanhistorynerd]

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Again what can they do when forced into poverty. Being forced to pay for their oppressors war. You act like they have resources and are just forced into an area. Please go to any real ghetto make your speach I am sure the people there will totally agree with what you are saying and realize that they are living in that condition because they were lazy. Having racial pride doesn't make equality.




"You do not like us, so we will make our own equality, without you treating us like your equals." And please explain this I am very interested in your concept.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Again what can they do when forced into poverty. Being forced to pay for their oppressors war. You act like they have resources and are just forced into an area. Please go to any real ghetto make your speach I am sure the people there will totally agree with what you are saying and realize that they are living in that condition because they were lazy. Having racial pride doesn't make equality.




"You do not like us, so we will make our own equality, without you treating us like your equals." And please explain this I am very interested in your concept.

quit bloody putting words into my posts. I never said they were in this because they were lazy. Just that the Dunmer should not have to wait for anyone. if people really were not supporting the "racist/xenophobic" stormcloaks, surely someone would have known and tried to help, if the dunmer were actually trying to fix the hand they were dealt.

 

[Anouck]

and likely everyone else in windhelm. it is not just the Dunmer who are paying the taxes. besides if the Dunmer do not like the way things are, they should fix it themselves by fixing the grey quarter, not complaining until you get someone who will help you for just asking for their help.

You keep justifying racism. Don't. You are better than that.

You keep going in circles. First you say people have to participate and pay taxes. When someone says the Dunmer do that, you say: yeah, like everybody else.
How can you not see the error in this? What you basically just did, is confirming my point of view. Yes, the Dunmer pay taxes, like everybody else. So why can't they live in normal houses, like everybody else.

And how dare you say that it is their responsibility to fix the grey quarter? You put people in a getto because of their race. Their race. Look at what you are defending here. You defend racial segregation. And of course Skyrim is just a game, but I hope you don't actually agree with this in RL.

How can you force them to live in the grey quarter, a slum named after them, and then tell them to fix it? The reason why they have to live there, is because they are considered second rank citizens. They are meant to live in less quality than the others. They live in bad conditions because they were forced to live in bad conditions.

I am not telling them to fix it. I am saying that if the Dunmer are hated so much by the nords/stormcloaks, they should not wait around for the Empire to win in order to have any kind of equality.

You are blaming the victim now? Classic.
You get discriminated and don't like it? Your own fault, because you don't change it!

My dear Jeremy, I don't think you understand what racism is. Racism, and now listen (or read ) very carefully, is treating someone different because of their race. >>>> THEIR RACE <<<<
..Even if many Dunmer wouldn't pay taxes,
..Even if many Dunmer don't participate in society,
even then it is racism to force them to live in a grey quarter. Why? Because that happens to be the exact definition of racism. "judging someone based on his race".
You don't tell Nords or Bretons who fail to participate in society to move to a getto.. They only do that to the Dunmer. It is racism. "you are a Dunmer, therefor you must live in this slum" is racism in its purest form.


I am going to do an extreme example, don't take this literal. Just try to get my point..
What if white people would force black people to live in slums because they are black? That would be racism, right? In what way is this different? Judging someone, based on race, is racism. It doesn't matter what arguments you have against it. It doesn't matter what you think the majority of the Dunmer is like.
Because you put a prejudice on their head because of them being Dunmer.

Why do I have to explain this??

 

[Seanu Reaves]

I am not I am using the very words you are choosing to use by their meaning.

I am not telling them to fix it. I am saying that if the Dunmer are hated so much by the nords/stormcloaks, they should not wait around for the Empire to win in order to have any kind of equality.

and yet they still live in a slum that they could have fixed a long time ago themselves to get that feeling of "You do not like us, so we will make our own equality, without you treating us like your equals."

and likely everyone else in windhelm. it is not just the Dunmer who are paying the taxes. besides if the Dunmer do not like the way things are, they should fix it themselves by fixing the grey quarter, not complaining until you get someone who will help you for just asking for their help.

Just some examples.

 

[Anouck]

And guess what: the nazis never literally said they wanted to exterminate the jews. After the war, the german soldiers said 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' (we really didn't know).
It is naive to think Ulfric would actually tell you if he was planning to do this.

[germanhistorynerd] Yes, the soldiers did know. Hitler wrote it all down what he planned to do with and what he thought of Jews in his book "Mein Kampf" ("My fight") which was released long before he climbed up the political ladder. And based upon his idiotic theories were also all the lessons children in school had about the facial characteristics of a Jewish face and much more idiocy. The soldiers said it because they feared for the lives, and the residents said it because of fear for their lives and part of them probably really didn't know due to ignorance (plus asking any officials about this subject might have you killed back then as well, so why bother).[/germanhistorynerd]

I know. My point is that people here justify racism because 'the dunmer don't get slaughtered because of their race, so it is no racism'. Apparantly racism is only racism when it ends in genocide..

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

You keep justifying racism. Don't. You are better than that.

You keep going in circles. First you say people have to participate and pay taxes. When someone says the Dunmer do that, you say: yeah, like everybody else.
How can you not see the error in this? What you basically just did, is confirming my point of view. Yes, the Dunmer pay taxes, like everybody else. So why can't they live in normal houses, like everybody else.

And how dare you say that it is their responsibility to fix the grey quarter? You put people in a getto because of their race. Their race. Look at what you are defending here. You defend racial segregation. And of course Skyrim is just a game, but I hope you don't actually agree with this in RL.

How can you force them to live in the grey quarter, a slum named after them, and then tell them to fix it? The reason why they have to live there, is because they are considered second rank citizens. They are meant to live in less quality than the others. They live in bad conditions because they were forced to live in bad conditions.

I am not telling them to fix it. I am saying that if the Dunmer are hated so much by the nords/stormcloaks, they should not wait around for the Empire to win in order to have any kind of equality.

You are blaming the victim now? Classic.
You get discriminated and don't like it? Your own fault, because you don't change it!

My dear Jeremy, I don't think you understand what racism is. Racism, and now listen (or read ) very carefully, is treating someone different because of their race. >>>> THEIR RACE <<<<
..Even if many Dunmer wouldn't pay taxes,
..Even if many Dunmer don't participate in society,
even then it is racism to force them to live in a grey quarter. Why? Because that happens to be the exact definition of racism. "judging someone based on his race".
You don't tell Nords or Bretons who fail to participate in society to move to a getto.. They only do that to the Dunmer. It is racism. "you are a Dunmer, therefor you must live in this slum" is racism in its purest form.


I am going to do an extreme example, don't take this literal. Just try to get my point..
What if white people would force black people to live in slums because they are black? That would be racism, right? In what way is this different? Judging someone, based on race, is racism. It doesn't matter what arguments you have against it. It doesn't matter what you think the majority of the Dunmer is like.
Because you put a prejudice on their head because of them being Dunmer.

Why do I have to explain this??

so all the problems have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any history between the Nords and the Dunmer? you must be right. The stormcloaks are racist xenophobics because only Nords are actually trying to free Skryim from the political grip of the Empire, while all other races are doing nothing unless they are forced to by the nords.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

They are Xenophobic because they hate anything they don't see as part of their "Glorious History" and are Racist due to the xenophobic vision of something that never was. Only Nords are trying to free Skyrim because they want to make a Nordic state and get everyone out of their "homeland." with a militia of hot-blooded young ones and old veteran's viewing the word through nostalgia. led my a man obsessed with getting his place in history.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

They are Xenophobic because they hate anything they don't see as part of their "Glorious History" and are Racist due to the xenophobic vision of something that never was. Only Nords are trying to free Skyrim because they want to make a Nordic state and get everyone out of their "homeland." with a militia of hot-blooded young ones and old veteran's viewing the word through nostalgia. led my a man obsessed with getting his place in history.

you all are right, the nords hate dunmer because that is all nords have that magically in them and it has nothing to do with the dunmer simply hating the nords even thought there is nothing to show us that the dunmer care for nords outside of a select few we see in game that actually work for the nords and like them.

 

[Sven]

This is how I see Imperial players.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Sources and Notes man. Sources and Notes. If you don't have an argument you can opt out. Like when Sven got eviscerated by our dear Anouck. If you had proof of unprovoked Dumner hatred of the Nords that would be fine. But don't you dare play the victim when you lose the game.

 

[Sven]

Wait I got what? I won all my arguments,unlike my opponent I don't make up stuff about dark elve genocide by the Stormcloaks,I stick to the lore,and in the lore,the Stormcloaks I say again DO NOT give a flying fluff about any dumbmer or lizards.They are too busy fighting the Empire.And Ulfric is not some Hitler looking to burn Elves and Argonians,he is a freedom fighter trying to liberate his land from oppression.

Thats how the story goes.Thats how Bethesda made it to be.

 

[Anouck]

so all the problems have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any history between the Nords and the Dunmer? you must be right. The stormcloaks are racist xenophobics because only Nords are actually trying to free Skryim from the political grip of the Empire, while all other races are doing nothing unless they are forced to by the nords.

You are not getting my point, buddy.
First of all; my point regards the way many Stormcloaks treat the Dark Elves. I am not talking about the Civil War and the Stormcloak cause at this moment. What I am trying to make you see, is that the Grey Quarters is a very clear example of racism. First of all, lets take a look at the definition of racism. I just googled it.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
First of all; you force someone to live in a slum because of their race. In this case: a Dunmer A house in this slum has remarkably less quality than one of the houses a few blocks away. Why don't the Dunmer deserve one of the normal houses? Because they are Dunmer. You see it now? They have to live in poor conditions because 'they are Dunmer and don't deserve to be treated equally'. The answer to the question why, is Dunmer.. A race.. Judgement based on race. What is not clear about this?
Secondly; When you use an argument like 'the Dunmer don't participate in society' or 'the Dunmer don't support the rebellion' then you are generalizing. And when you generalize a specific group, you have a prejudice. And that brings us to the second definition of racism. Because they are Dunmer, you expect them to be a certain way.
You say things like 'They can fix the Grey Quarter' or 'They can move somewhere else if they don't like it'. What you bring to the table now, is a possible sollution for the Dunmer. But that isn't relevant for the core of the problem. And the core of the problem is that they were forced to live there to begin with.
Come on.. I simply refuse to believe you fail to understand this. Do you see the point I am trying to make, bud?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Here is how I see windhelm. IT IS A CITY I DO NOT CARE ABOUT. simple as that. what happens in windhelm stays in windhelm because no one else seems to even talk about it until the Dunmer get someone they love on the throne of the city. I hardly spend any time there, so racism/segregation/nords being mean to the Dunmer based on race in windhelm? useless information to me.

 

[Anouck]

Wait I got what? I won all my arguments,unlike my opponent I don't make up stuff about dark elve genocide by the Stormcloaks,I stick to the lore,and in the lore,the Stormcloaks I say again DO NOT give a flying fluff about any dumbmer or lizards.They are too busy fighting the Empire.And Ulfric is not some Hitler looking to burn Elves and Argonians,he is a freedom fighter trying to liberate his land from oppression.

Thats how the story goes.Thats how Bethesda made it to be.

No one said there was a dark elf genocide. This proofs you just got it wrong. There were comparrissons to Hitler because their happen to be many similarities between the nazi regime and the way some Stormcloaks treat Dark Elves. What I did say, is that the fact that Ulfric didn't masacre Dunmer on a large scale doesn't mean he is not being racist.

And also.. You seem to think you won all your arguments. I have no idea where you got that from

 

[Anouck]

Here is how I see windhelm. IT IS A CITY I DO NOT CARE ABOUT. simple as that. what happens in windhelm stays in windhelm because no one else seems to even talk about it until the Dunmer get someone they love on the throne of the city. I hardly spend any time there, so racism/segregation/nords being mean to the Dunmer based on race in windhelm? useless information to me.

You say you don't care, yet you are sitting here to defend something that is just plain racism. If you don't care, then don't try to make the Grey Quarter look better than it is. I don't mind you are a Stormcloak. I really don't. But from a moral perspective I do care about the Dunmer discussion. Why? Because the moral behind it is bigger than just the game itself.