Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[OckhamsFolly]

Hah. See. I was right!

In all earnestness, I was wondering how this discussion looks among players who are from Egypt, Pakistan, India, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Ireland, etc, etc, and have a more recent experience of decolonization.

What can I say? History has vindicated you wankers.

It's true that there's been plenty of time for the blood to cool, though. Surely there's someone here from a recently emancipated nation.

 

[Moris]

What can I say? History has vindicated you wankers.


It's true that there's been plenty of time for the blood to cool, though. Surely there's someone here from a recently emancipated nation.

History has turned an empire that last century spanned almost 1/4th of the world's landmass and 1/5th of the global population into a tiny little island of angry politicians who wield a thoroughly disproportionate amount of international influence. The only thing that we actually succeeded in doing was making our incredibly inefficient and grammatically absurd language dominate all others in the arena of international discourse. Oh, and the Union Jack shows up in a lot, a lot, of flags. Maybe that's vindicated. Maybe not. I agree with the wankers bit, though.

There was one Algerian who posted, perhaps even in this thread. IIRC he was a Stormcloak supporter. But one instance does not make a trend.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Uriel Septim VII and Martin Septim were Imperials. Most of the Emperors of the Second Empire were Imperials, and the First Empire certainly had Imperial Emperors.

I forgot about bloody Uriel and Martin. Though we're on the Third Era so First and Second Empires can't be used. Though to be fair Martin was more or less made Emperor on the first day of the fourth era.

 

[DrunkenMage]

As a Brit, I am charmed by how vehemently participants in this thread will defend the idea of an empire as a benevolent entity. I mean, I understand it, coming from the Americans, as they clearly just miss us -- and our taxes and our redcoats and our mad kings -- dearly. But everyone else?

Well my country is apart of the Commonwealth so... Besides I quite enjoy those posh accents you lot have.

 

[OckhamsFolly]

History has turned an empire that last century spanned almost 1/4th of the world's landmass and 1/5th of the global population into a tiny little island of angry politicians who wield a thoroughly disproportionate amount of international influence. The only thing that we actually succeeded in doing was making our incredibly inefficient and grammatically absurd language dominate all others in the arena of international discourse. Oh, and the Union Jack shows up in a lot, a lot, of flags. Maybe that's vindicated. Maybe not. I agree with the wankers bit, though.

There was one Algerian who posted, perhaps even in this thread. IIRC he was a Stormcloak supporter. But one instance does not make a trend.

I was talking just about our revolution vis a visit the vindication. As for the rest, well, it's what happens to empires. The decline is inevitable, whether it's internal strife, external conflict, insufficient resources, overreaching leaders, or simply outdated methods; of course, it's usually all of these. Whether the Empire is in the right or not, we're certainly seeing its decline in this chapter of the Elder Scrolls.

By the by, DrunkenMage, if you're only talking about the current iteration of the Empire, then it's been around less than 650 years, not over 1000 years as you said a little earlier.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I was talking just about our revolution vis a visit the vindication. As for the rest, well, it's what happens to empires. The decline is inevitable, whether it's internal strife, external conflict, insufficient resources, overreaching leaders, or simply outdated methods; of course, it's usually all of these. Whether the Empire is in the right or not, we're certainly seeing its decline in this chapter of the Elder Scrolls.

By the by, DrunkenMage, if you're only talking about the current iteration of the Empire, then it's been around less than 650 years, not over 1000 years as you said a little earlier.

I was speaking generally, the Empire located in Cyrodiil.

 

[Ozan]

Right, everything that either conflicts with your views or serves to disprove you is nothing but propaganda being perpetuated by Bethesda for no reason other than to mislead their fans. It's not like you could play Oblivion or anything.

((Right about here. Right here.

Words are like sparrows. Once released, they may not be caught again. You've chosen your words with carelessness.

I've thus far only disagreed with and questioned views and opinions. I've yet to judge one's character or integrity.

This offends me that you judge my integrity so easily, so quickly. Moris frequently complained about this and its been dismissed by most, including myself. You judged my integrity through my character which is perhaps even worse. I've felt I've been rather pleasant, my views seperate than my character. I've said this before, I actually like the legion. I quite enjoyed the quests in Morrowind, and out of four characters in Skyrim, two are Legion. I've been playing ONLY Oblivion for the last few weeks.

However, your nerve, your very hubris, has spoken far greater than any fact you may ever provide.

I've seen your kind before. Liberal, perhaps well educated, has no particular religion displaying agnostic or athiest views. Your background has either been that of a privileged uprising or that of conflicting views with your parents, them being conservative and you not so much. All opinions are based on facts or interesting theories, completely neglecting certain human elements. Though smart, your arrogance is fueled by the idea that you know what is better simply because it is you.

I may be wrong, but I know I'm not far off. You do have facts and information, but this only displays half truths. You read one side of the story and refuse to read the other. This is a form of tunnel vision, hindering both insight and progress.

I'm sure you've played Stormcloak, but I doubt you embraced far too different views. I've been a victim of racial oppression, religious oppression, been accused of racism, and quite a lengthy list that may go on and on.

I would not tolerate these injustices, why would I tolerate yours?

My entire point is, if you have something to say, say it. If you intend to debate, then debate. But I refuse to tolerate any further insults from you, no matter how minor.

Understood?

To Moris, my sincerest apologies for not addressing this sooner.))

 

[Moris]

I was talking just about our revolution vis a visit the vindication. As for the rest, well, it's what happens to empires. The decline is inevitable, whether it's internal strife, external conflict, insufficient resources, overreaching leaders, or simply outdated methods; of course, it's usually all of these. Whether the Empire is in the right or not, we're certainly seeing its decline in this chapter of the Elder Scrolls.

Oh, I don't know. The American government is no worse than the British one, though they do spend more money campaigning, which gives the impression of bread and circuses, except without the bread. But in many ways, Americans still enjoy far greater freedom, particularly in the press and the media.

Looking at France and Britain's bitter struggles in the late 19th to mid 20th centuries, I have come to the opinion that once a colony has voiced a sufficiently strong desire for self-rule, gaining it is inevitable. It is just a matter of how many lives will be sacrificed on both sides before it is achieved. Even short periods of decolonization that happen to coincide with major foreign invasions do have a habit of completely obliterating empires. Indeed, TES Empire is on the decline.

 

[Ozan]

Name good Legion folk I guess Good means they did they job and were honest? Legionnaires that aid you in the retaking of Kvatch. Thousands of Legionnaires that died during the Great War, Nords, Bretons, Colovians. Hadvar, Legate Rikke, Legate Adventus Caesennius, Legate Constantius Tituleius, Legate Emmanuel Admand, Legate Fasendil, Legate Hrollod, Legate Quentin Cipius, Legate Sevan Telendas, Legate Skulnar, Legate Taurinus Duilis. Captain Servatius Quintilius, Captain Itius Hayn (Who arrests the corrupt Legionnaire) Commander Adamus Phillida (Spent his career investigating the dark brotherhood, assassinated after retirement) Commander Giovanni Civello, Captain Gepard Montrose, Captain Carmalo Truiand (Replaces the corrupt Legionnaire)

Just because they weren't named or written down in TES history doesn't mean they weren't good people.

What slaughter in the Imperial city by Legionnaires? I don't know about that so you will have to explain that and show me where you got that from.

((Btw, I will eventually answer this completely. My phone is just sucking right now.))

 

[feliciano182]

In all earnestness, I was wondering how this discussion looks among players who are from Egypt, Pakistan, India, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Ireland, etc, etc, and have a more recent experience of decolonization.

I am from Venezuela, and I mostly believe the independence struggles in South America are over-glorified.

My opinion is not popular, but it stems from discovering some harsh realities about the people who liberated many of the colonies from the rule of the spanish crown, people like Simon Bolivar owned slaves and killed many many people in cold blood, and he did it all, basically, because he thought being bossed around by spanish nobles sucked. That's not to say the spanish crown didn't suck, and treated it's colonies like garbage, but nobody is good simply by standing next to someone who's evil.

Aside from that, and as I've stated before, I think patriotism and nationalism are imbecilic ideals, they do nothing but separate people from each other based on irrelevant, prejudiced and rationalized differences that always end up in violence.

Thus, as someone who comes from a "decolonized" nation, I know it's fairly possible to support any empire and denounce a rebellion for what it is, a power-play backed by a personality cult.

I honestly don't believe The Cyrodilic Empire is perfect, as plenty have stated here, sometimes I've wondered if they aren't paying too high a price to keep peace, I do not believe it was right for people to be executed like that at Helgen, and Roggvir did not deserve to be used as a threat of coertion towards the citizens of the imperial provinces; perhaps that's the dark side of The Empire, it mirrors the social contract, and the measures it has to take to maintain civilization and peace, it is the irony of all societies, in my humble opinion.

Still, I support The Empire not only because they are actually doing something to help Tamriel, but also because they represent a symbol of what society could be, a peaceful gathering of culture and civilization under the banner of unity, that may sound contradictory, given my stance on nationalism, but fighting for The Empire means fighting for everyone, not just for the self-entitled right wingers.

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

This offends me that you judge my integrity so easily, so quickly. Moris frequently complained about this and its been dismissed by most, including myself. You judged my integrity through my character which is perhaps even worse. I've felt I've been rather pleasant, my views seperate than my character. I've said this before, I actually like the legion. I quite enjoyed the quests in Morrowind, and out of four characters in Skyrim, two are Legion. I've been playing ONLY Oblivion for the last few weeks.

Likely because I didn't know Ozan's beliefs didn't entirely reflect your own, and that I didn't know how you truly felt about the Legion. Yet whether his beliefs are separate from yours or not, Ozan's information was perpetuating exaggerated information and was disregarding whatever contradicting him by calling it Imperial propaganda. I replied to this with a remark that's hardly judging anything and was meant to be taken as a sarcastic joke.

However, your nerve, your very hubris, has spoken far greater than any fact you may ever provide.

My nerve? You're twisting and warping this around to make it sound as if I've directly insulted you when it simply isn't the case. I did reply with a sarcastic remark which held truth in the fact that your character was disregarding information and facts which contradicted his own.

I've seen your kind before. Liberal,

Sorta kinda

perhaps well educated, has no particular religion displaying agnostic or athiest views.

Yup.

Your background has either been that of a privileged uprising or that of conflicting views with your parents, them being conservative and you not so much.

I'd hardly call my parents conservative, or even very religious for that matter.

All opinions are based on facts or interesting theories, completely neglecting certain human elements. Though smart, your arrogance is fueled by the idea that you know what is better simply because it is you.

There is nothing in my post that implies arrogance, nor is there any judging of your integrity; but Ozan's. Seeing as how the two of you share different views which was unclear to me prior to writing my post. Yet you continue to label me with such words and make further assumptions on my character when in fact you know nothing about me aside from my views in a fictional universe. It's rather odd how a sarcastic remark could set you off on this, totally disregarding whatever was said on the Empire. I called you out on your disregard and neglect of opposing information, which was entirely observable and obvious. Whether it was you or Ozan, it was rather clear.

I may be wrong, but I know I'm not far off. You do have facts and information, but this only displays half truths. You read one side of the story and refuse to read the other. This is a form of tunnel vision, hindering both insight and progress.

And here you are, contradicting yourself once more when it was you who refused to heed whichever opposing information came your way.

I'm sure you've played Stormcloak, but I doubt you embraced far too different views. I've been a victim of racial oppression, religious oppression, been accused of racism, and quite a lengthy list that may go on and on.

I fervidly defended the Stormcloaks when I first played through Skyrim, and though I played Oblivion many years before I hated the Empire. This was, however, a time when I was really fumbling in the dark when it came to lore aspects and I did not know anything about the Markarth Incident or who the Thalmor really even were. I also looked upon the segregation in Windhelm with blatant disregard and ignorance.

It wasn't until I actually decided to research and become better acquainted with the lore that I began to sway towards the Imperials.

I would not tolerate these injustices, why would I tolerate yours?

And what injustices have I committed? What heinous crime lay within the words "Right, everything that either conflicts with your views or serves to disprove you is nothing but propaganda being perpetuated by Bethesda for no reason other than to mislead their fans. It's not like you could play Oblivion or anything."

My entire point is, if you have something to say, say it. If you intend to debate, then debate. But I refuse to tolerate any further insults from you, no matter how minor.

Understood?

And my point is that in the face of ignorance and disregard for reason, whether it be you, Ozan or anybody else I will simply not take you seriously and will not shy away from cracking sarcastic remarks. The humorous aspect here is that this is a strawman so large it takes up many paragraphs, you've utterly disregarded everything I've said in favor of blowing up a single sarcastic remark of mine and painting me out to be an "arrogant, judging bad guy guilty of hubris and injustice." Obviously it'd be one thing had I called you names or insulted you directly, yet where was this reaction when Dagmar accused you of being "bottles deep in skooma?"

I think everyone here has played sarcasm here, I've encountered it frequently and never have I been pushed to such a point. I was labeled a Nord-hating racist by someone who read my post in a roleplay where my character is attacked by a inebriated Nord. He defended his position vehemently, even though everyone pretty much turned on him.

You're clearly exaggerating this entire ordeal, and it's rather ridiculous how a joking remark that served not to judge you or insult you could set you off on such a rant. I am not sorry that you are acting overly sensitive and I am not sorry for my sarcastic remark which was meant to be taken as a joke.

Understood?

 

[OckhamsFolly]

Deep breaths, guys. Deep breaths.

Mr. Self Destruct, surely you can see how:

"Right, everything that either conflicts with your views or serves to disprove you is nothing but propaganda being perpetuated by Bethesda for no reason other than to mislead their fans. It's not like you could play Oblivion or anything."

can be interpreted as dismissive. You might not have meant to be offensive with it, but you essentially told Ozan that he doesn't know what the crap he's talking about. And, as everyone here loved TES enough to get on a forum and talk about it, I think it's fair to assume everyone has familiarity with at least Oblivion. Suggesting he doesn't, in a rather brusque way, has a lot of implications to it, perhaps most importantly in this context that:

A) You know more than he does
B) That makes what he has to say invalid

Perhaps you didn't mean that; in fact, you probably didn't, because rudeness is more often born out of carelessness than malice. It does happen, but the proper response is to apologize for giving offense, not digging your heels in deeper. Regardless of intent, you obviously upset him, and we, as civilized people, should strive to correct when we give offense

Regarding his tendency to post in character, well, you should have caught on to that. Ozan has a very different writing style OOC and makes it clear by posting in parentheses, which he's done quite a bit over the last few pages so it's not like it's obscure knowledge. This compounds on the above remark, by implying that you haven't even really been paying attention to Ozan's posts. From where he's sitting, don't you think that it's offensive to be told you don't know anything by someone who clearly hasn't followed your arguments?

Now, Ozan, sadly, in the interests of fairness, I can't let you off scot-free.

First off, I can't fully empathize; I'm one of those people from a privileged upbringing, and the closest I've come to persecution is when acquaintances make racist remarks about "towelheads" and how awful Muslims are and I have to coldly enlighten them that my grandfather is a Muslim immigrant. It's temporarily uncomfortable and awkward, but the truth is I myself am unquestionably white and solidly middle class, and live in a northern US state where so is the vast majority of the population. I am not am object of prejudice.

With that caveat, I do think you came back swinging too hard. Hostility met with hostility engenders yet more hostility, and while I certainly agree that Mr. Self Destruct was out of line, I do not think he provided enough information for you to make those rather sweeping assumptions about him. At that point, aren't you just returning what you believed you received, negative generalizations on someone you don't know? I'm a strong believer that, if wronged, one should elevate their detractor to one's own level rather than sink to theirs.

I can see how your experiences may have jaded you and perhaps taught you to lead with a strong counter, but in this context, I think a gentler, more informative rebuke would have been more effective. You don't go after a screw with a hammer, etc. etc.

Sorry to get involved in your guys' personal dispute, but I thought maybe an outside perspective might help take the edge out of it.

 

[RagePig]

Sorry to shamelessly self whore but if you'd like to see some great letsplays please visit our channel and enjoy this skyrim video:

 

[Mr.Self Destruct]

Deep breaths, guys. Deep breaths.

Mr. Self Destruct, surely you can see how

can be interpreted as dismissive. You might not have meant to be offensive with it, but you essentially told Ozan that he doesn't know what the crap he's talking about. And, as everyone here loved TES enough to get on a forum and talk about it, I think it's fair to assume everyone has familiarity with at least Oblivion. Suggesting he doesn't, in a rather brusque way, has a lot of implications to it, perhaps most importantly in this context that:

I wasn't trying to come off as acting like I knew more, only pointing out how Ozan was disregarding the information given to him and perpetuating it as propaganda and lies. At the point where Ozan said this, I decided to reply sarcastically and dismissively, yes. I acknowledge that.

Perhaps you didn't mean that; in fact, you probably didn't, because rudeness is more often born out of carelessness than malice. It does happen, but the proper response is to apologize for giving offense, not digging your heels in deeper. Regardless of intent, you obviously upset him, and we, as civilized people, should strive to correct when we give offense

Honestly I would have been more apologetic and show more hospitality in my last post, but the way Ozan phrased his post and labeled me as arrogant and privileged and all that made me reply the way I did. I just thought it was kind of ridiculous how far he went off such a petty remark. I do see how my original post could have come off as condescending, yet given what it was replying to I don't see how it was really inappropriate. When given a response along the lines of "Well, everything you're saying about the Empire is propaganda." It's hard to take that seriously.

Regarding his tendency to post in character, well, you should have caught on to that.

I've rarely seen him post out of character, and even still I didn't know his views weren't parallel to Ozan's. I know he's been roleplaying since he entered the debate, and I know that sometimes he'll step out of character but what I didn't know until now is that he doesn't share Ozan's views.

Honestly, I do think your points do have truth to them and I do like how you're trying to ease things as this thread has blown up in hostilities many times before which really do not pertain to the topic at hand. But I still stand by what I said, I do not think I was really out of line at the time of my posting. Now that I know more about Ozan and his creator I do refrain my statement, but when I was given a dismissive argument such as the Imperials spread propaganda and lies I decided to reply sarcastically. I did not display arrogance or hubris, nor did I judge the integrity of Ozan's character.

I digress, if given a dismissive and fallacious argument I simply won't take you very seriously.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Back onto the Imperial vs Stormcloak side of things.

A major point many Stormcloak supporters will use is the Empire is the puppet of the Thalmor that they do what the Thalmor want. I would accept that if the Empire wasn't on the border facing down the Aldmeri Dominion, if the Thalmor weren't trying to destroy and weaken the Empire with the rebellion. It would seem Stormcloaks would be more the puppet, since they do get Thalmor aid and are doing what the Thalmor want by weakening the Empire.

Just because the Empire went for peace doesn't make them puppets. It just doesn't make sense that the Thalmor would be trying to weaken the Empire and destroy it, if they controlled it and pulled the Empire's strings. The Empire allowed Thalmor free reign across the Empire to slaughter people... No they didn't. They were allowed to track down Talos worshipers but to make an arrest they needed evidence hence the quest in Markarth where the Thalmor needs proof that a person is worshiping Talos. If they had complete freedom as many stormcloaks claim, then they would of just taken him. The Thalmor don't always follow the right thing which is noticed by their Death Squads sent to hunt the Dragonborn, their attacks on the player if the player asks too many questions. However the Empire doesn't have proof of it. They suspect it and are gearing up for a war but they have no proof of the Thalmor doing the cloak and dagger stuff. The Thalmor plan hundreds of years ahead.

The fact that the Legions are on the border and are preparing for another conflict shows they are not mere puppets. Ulfric however is doing what they want by directing Imperial attention away from the Aldmeri Dominion and turning the eyes of the Empire away from external affairs and into an internal struggle.

I wouldn't call the Mede Empire a bad Empire, they faced a lot of problems, with a weakened Empire that had lost many provinces. They restored a lot of things and fixed many others. Titus Mede II chose peace, the fact that he did that speaks volumes, it doesn't make the Empire cowards or weak. Unless of course you consider saving thousands is weak. People have a habit of trying to make out the Thalmor have more power than they actually do within the Empire.

I do remember reading awhile back that someone said something about "how long does the empire need to wait then" Since it has been nearly 30 years of rebuilding, people seem to think that the Empire is too weak. Well you'd be an idiot to go to war while you're having a Civil war.

 

[Adolf Stormcloak]

Sorry to shamelessly self whore but if you'd like to see some great letsplays please visit our channel and enjoy this skyrim video:

 

[Shadow King]

I dont think Ulfric is the way forward for Skyrim, I can see how some of his ideals seem good but all he is using is honeyed words to pursuade u the player to fight for him, I do think Ulfric is a little misunderstood though.

All the above aside join the Empire, they were once run by a man who became a god, I think that matters alot that Tiber Septim who unified Tamriel with his conquering methods and made the Empire into the force they once were, the empire is of course all about imperialism, but it worked in the past and it did bring peace before, so if ure character is a good guy I think u should join the Imperials, the Stormcloaks are racist pigs who kill there own people.

For the Empire and the greater good.

 

[Moris]

Deep breaths, guys. Deep breaths.

Mr. Self Destruct, surely you can see how:



can be interpreted as dismissive. You might not have meant to be offensive with it, but you essentially told Ozan that he doesn't know what the crap he's talking about. And, as everyone here loved TES enough to get on a forum and talk about it, I think it's fair to assume everyone has familiarity with at least Oblivion. Suggesting he doesn't, in a rather brusque way, has a lot of implications to it, perhaps most importantly in this context that:

A) You know more than he does
B) That makes what he has to say invalid

Perhaps you didn't mean that; in fact, you probably didn't, because rudeness is more often born out of carelessness than malice. It does happen, but the proper response is to apologize for giving offense, not digging your heels in deeper. Regardless of intent, you obviously upset him, and we, as civilized people, should strive to correct when we give offense

Regarding his tendency to post in character, well, you should have caught on to that. Ozan has a very different writing style OOC and makes it clear by posting in parentheses, which he's done quite a bit over the last few pages so it's not like it's obscure knowledge. This compounds on the above remark, by implying that you haven't even really been paying attention to Ozan's posts. From where he's sitting, don't you think that it's offensive to be told you don't know anything by someone who clearly hasn't followed your arguments?

Now, Ozan, sadly, in the interests of fairness, I can't let you off scot-free.

First off, I can't fully empathize; I'm one of those people from a privileged upbringing, and the closest I've come to persecution is when acquaintances make racist remarks about "towelheads" and how awful Muslims are and I have to coldly enlighten them that my grandfather is a Muslim immigrant. It's temporarily uncomfortable and awkward, but the truth is I myself am unquestionably white and solidly middle class, and live in a northern US state where so is the vast majority of the population. I am not am object of prejudice.

With that caveat, I do think you came back swinging too hard. Hostility met with hostility engenders yet more hostility, and while I certainly agree that Mr. Self Destruct was out of line, I do not think he provided enough information for you to make those rather sweeping assumptions about him. At that point, aren't you just returning what you believed you received, negative generalizations on someone you don't know? I'm a strong believer that, if wronged, one should elevate their detractor to one's own level rather than sink to theirs.

I can see how your experiences may have jaded you and perhaps taught you to lead with a strong counter, but in this context, I think a gentler, more informative rebuke would have been more effective. You don't go after a screw with a hammer, etc. etc.

Sorry to get involved in your guys' personal dispute, but I thought maybe an outside perspective might help take the edge out of it.

This is a beautiful post. Or it would be, if the dispute that fuelled this exchange were as simple as the trading of a single dismissive remark. Alas, it's not. It's hundreds of pages filled with such remarks.

I've mostly gritted my teeth and ignored them when I've come across them because I assumed that any reasonably intelligent person reading them would see them for what they are: personal attacks that weaken the argument of the one making them. I have also lost massive amounts of respect for perpetrators of this tactic on both sides. However, that loss of respect has got to the point that I no longer see any purpose in responding to those who've made a habit of arguing in this manner. By now, half the contributors to this thread don't show up on my screen when I read it.

Ozan may have blown up. But I doubt that it was at a single exchange (as he alludes to my own increasing cynicism regarding this thread). He strikes me as possessed of a great deal more equanimity than that.

I have also attempted to play peacemaker. It was futile.

I concluded instead that when the poo starts flying the best thing you can do is duck and/or exit.

 

[Shadow King]

Back onto the Imperial vs Stormcloak side of things.

A major point many Stormcloak supporters will use is the Empire is the puppet of the Thalmor that they do what the Thalmor want. I would accept that if the Empire wasn't on the border facing down the Aldmeri Dominion, if the Thalmor weren't trying to destroy and weaken the Empire with the rebellion. It would seem Stormcloaks would be more the puppet, since they do get Thalmor aid and are doing what the Thalmor want by weakening the Empire.

Just because the Empire went for peace doesn't make them puppets. It just doesn't make sense that the Thalmor would be trying to weaken the Empire and destroy it, if they controlled it and pulled the Empire's strings. The Empire allowed Thalmor free reign across the Empire to slaughter people... No they didn't. They were allowed to track down Talos worshipers but to make an arrest they needed evidence hence the quest in Markarth where the Thalmor needs proof that a person is worshiping Talos. If they had complete freedom as many stormcloaks claim, then they would of just taken him. The Thalmor don't always follow the right thing which is noticed by their Death Squads sent to hunt the Dragonborn, their attacks on the player if the player asks too many questions. However the Empire doesn't have proof of it. They suspect it and are gearing up for a war but they have no proof of the Thalmor doing the cloak and dagger stuff. The Thalmor plan hundreds of years ahead.

The fact that the Legions are on the border and are preparing for another conflict shows they are not mere puppets. Ulfric however is doing what they want by directing Imperial attention away from the Aldmeri Dominion and turning the eyes of the Empire away from external affairs and into an internal struggle.

I wouldn't call the Mede Empire a bad Empire, they faced a lot of problems, with a weakened Empire that had lost many provinces. They restored a lot of things and fixed many others. Titus Mede II chose peace, the fact that he did that speaks volumes, it doesn't make the Empire cowards or weak. Unless of course you consider saving thousands is weak. People have a habit of trying to make out the Thalmor have more power than they actually do within the Empire.

I do remember reading awhile back that someone said something about "how long does the empire need to wait then" Since it has been nearly 30 years of rebuilding, people seem to think that the Empire is too weak. Well you'd be an idiot to go to war while you're having a Civil war.

Evry single thing u have said here is 100%.

Before I went to kill the emperor in the db quest I thought good he is a weak puppet, but meeting the man and seeing how easy and fearless he was off me I saw only strength. that single encounter changed my views of him, and the emperor got his last request from me, there was no way I could refuse his request.

I think people blame the emperor and they always compare him to the septims and say he is a bad emperor what because he didn't conquer Tamriel like Tiber or didn't sacrifice himself like Martin.

 

[OckhamsFolly]

This is a beautiful post. Or it would be, if the dispute that fuelled this exchange were as simple as the trading of a single dismissive remark. Alas, it's not. It's hundreds of pages filled with such remarks.

I've mostly gritted my teeth and ignored them when I've come across them because I assumed that any reasonably intelligent person reading them would see them for what they are: personal attacks that weaken the argument of the one making them. I have also lost massive amounts of respect for perpetrators of this tactic on both sides. However, that loss of respect has got to the point that I no longer see any purpose in responding to those who've made a habit of arguing in this manner. By now, half the contributors to this thread don't show up on my screen when I read it.

Ozan may have blown up. But I doubt that it was at a single exchange (as he alludes to my own increasing cynicism regarding this thread). He strikes me as possessed of a great deal more equanimity than that.

I have also attempted to play peacemaker. It was futile.

I concluded instead that when the poo starts flying the best thing you can do is duck and/or exit.

I understand, and you're right about getting involved in these sorts of things. I'm sure you're also right about this being the straw that broke Ozan's back; Ozan's a good khajiit and I quite like him, but I felt in the interests of impartiality it would be unfair to not gently remind him that it's everyone's responsibility to keep a cool head.

This does seem to be the forum's obligatory megathread, and as such it's going to be a place that tempers flare and things get out of hand. I'm newly minted and my patience hasn't run out yet; I'm sure eventually it will, or at the very least I'll start feeling like I'm being patronizing and just stop.