Skyrims realism, or your thoughts on it and the overpowerness.

[Smarty]

Me thinks we need to find a new thread for the magic discussion, but I love skyrim.

Skyrims realism, or your thoughts on it and the overpowerness.
I believe we are still on topic.

Wards can counteract most ranged based magic, including dragons. You can also heal yourself from those arrows and bolts. If you include enchanting, magic is very overpowered. In close quarters why do I need to worry about that big sword when I can paralyse them, walk over to them, calmly pickpocket it from them, and wack em with it for easy XP?

My argument was about why range usually won't make much difference. But still I won't back down so easily .
Wards cost magicka, healing cost magicka, paralysis cost magicka. If you are out of magicka, you are fluffed, but if your a warrior and your out of stamina you aren't, because you can keep on hitting.

Also, warriors can use paralysis potions and rogues make them, they can use them as much as they like, no magicka to worry about. What is your point?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Skyrims realism, or your thoughts on it and the overpowerness.
I believe we are still on topic.


My argument was about why range usually won't make much difference. But still I won't back down so easily .
Wards cost magicka, healing cost magicka, paralysis cost magicka. If you are out of magicka, you are fluffed, but if your a warrior and your out of stamina you aren't, because you can keep on hitting.

Also, warriors can use paralysis potions and rogues make them, they can use them as much as they like, no magicka to worry about. What is your point?

Enchanted gear to make it cheaper, and I can have just as much stamina and health as that warrior. I can have multiple sets of the enchanted gear to cover multiple situations. Also, magicka potions. A warrior can do it easier, but a spell-caster does it right. If you c choose your skills wisely, magic makes things uber easy.(you can also increase magic regen)

My point is that magic can be just as overpowered as melee.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Melee warriors are also limited by the amount of consumables they can bring, and they will be forced to reapply their selected poison every hit. A mage, by comparison, would have more room for more potions (if you chose your build smartly)

 

[Smarty]

Enchanted gear to make it cheaper, and I can have just as much stamina and health as that warrior. I can have multiple sets of the enchanted gear to cover multiple situations. Also, magicka potions. A warrior can do it easier, but a spell-caster does it right. If you c choose your skills wisely, magic makes things uber easy.(you can also increase magic regen)

My point is that magic can be just as overpowered as melee.

Well, first, alchemy is part of of the "thief" archetype now, though I can see why you are confused because it was part of magic back in Oblivion. Second, all the stamina in the world won't make a difference, unless you're intent on running your enemy to death, lol. Third, warriors can also make use of enchanted gear, and some gear is much more powerful than what you can make yourself with enchanting, or can't even be replicated using enchanting.

The argument here is not how wisely you choose you skills or how uber easy it can get. The argument is that you can't be as powerful a mage that you can be a warrior in the late levels (20-50). The reasons why that is, is because destruction is not powerful enough, alteration does not give enough damage reduction (without using armor), and magicka is finite. You see, now we are on the same page.

 

[Smarty]

Melee warriors are also limited by the amount of consumables they can bring, and they will be forced to reapply their selected poison every hit. A mage, by comparison, would have more room for more potions (if you chose your build smartly)

But then, the mage archetype doesn't get to create potions. Also, they are a lot of factors, like the money you have, how many potions you find in your travels, your carry weight etc. A side by side comparisons on this factor is impossible. But for reference, where can a mage apply a poison?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Well, first, alchemy is part of of the "thief" archetype now, though I can see why you are confused because it was part of magic back in Oblivion. Second, all the stamina in the world won't make a difference, unless you're intent on running your enemy to death, lol. Third, warriors can also make use of enchanted gear, and some gear is much more powerful than what you can make yourself with enchanting, or can't even be replicated using enchanting.

The argument here is not how wisely you choose you skills or how uber easy it can get. The argument is that you can't be as powerful a mage that you can be a warrior in the late levels (20-50). The reasons why that is, is because destruction is not powerful enough, alteration does not give enough damage reduction (without using armor), and magicka is finite. You see, now we are on the same page.

Not quite. I fail to see where I said alchemy was apart of themagic skill tree. If melee warriors can use poison, I'm assuming mages can use potions. And no, no gear is anywhere near as powerful as what I can make using enchantments, and that's especially if using smithing as well.

That's only if you include destruction and nothing else. Even then, there are ways around it. Using cost reduction/magic regen, I can cast as many spells as I like, and be able to keep up quite easily.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

But then, the mage archetype doesn't get to create potions. Also, they are a lot of factors, like the money you have, how many potions you find in your travels, your carry weight etc. A side by side comparisons on this factor is impossible. But for reference, where can a mage apply a poison?

Why would a mage need poison? And once again, the warrior doesn't get any if the mage doesn't.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

But then, the mage archetype doesn't get to create potions. Also, they are a lot of factors, like the money you have, how many potions you find in your travels, your carry weight etc. A side by side comparisons on this factor is impossible. But for reference, where can a mage apply a poison?

Poisons are nowhere near as powerful or unlimited as a good spellcaster's magic. With illusion I can effect enemies and such up to the lvl seventies. I can use paralyse as many times as I like. Poisons just don't cut it compared to a mage. You can argue the damage, but you won't get the chance to use it against a good mage.

 

[Smarty]

Why would a mage need poison? And once again, the warrior doesn't get any if the mage doesn't.

The mage doesn't get any poison because he can't apply it to a weapon...

Not quite. I fail to see where I said alchemy was apart of themagic skill tree. If melee warriors can use poison, I'm assuming mages can use potions. And no, no gear is anywhere near as powerful as what I can make using enchantments, and that's especially if using smithing as well.

I got that from "magicka potions", scroll up. That's only if you include destruction and nothing else. Even then, there are ways around it. Using cost reduction/magic regen, I can cast as many spells as I like, and be able to keep up quite easily.

Well by using exploits you can make any archetype the most powerful. Go see the the artifacts page on uesp. Pure mages can use potions, but can't make them.

By same page, I meant that we are now arguing about the same thing.

EDIT: Or did you mean, magicka potions as in potions that restore magicka? My bad.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

The mage doesn't get any poison because he can't apply it to a weapon...



Well by using exploits you can make any archetype the most powerful. Go see the the artifacts page on uesp. Pure mages can use potions, but can't make them.

By same page, I meant that we are now arguing about the same thing.

EDIT: Or did you mean, magicka potions as in potions that restore magicka? My bad.

A pure warrior can use poisons, but not make them. Reducing magic costs and increasing magic regen is not an exploit. I will give you that point for the enchanting argument, but the fact remains that it is possible. Using enchanting and or alchemy any build can mimic any other build fairly easily.

EDIT: indeed I did, and I hold nothing against you.

 

[wrighty]

I think a point that's worth making is mages are limited with their magic, whilst mages have an array of abilities this is only at high level and there's not enough perks to invest in every magic tree equally.
For example paralyse doesn't affect any undead or automatons and is only available at expert level, otherwise all alteration flesh spells are inferior to armour, except the master spell which is equal and only lasts 30 seconds with huge magicka cost.
Illusion doesn't work on undead or automatons until it is mastered, it's also fairly high magicka cost and doesn't affect a lot of enemies.
Conjuration can be powerful but only beyond expert level, and high level mages can banish or command your summons.

The main direct damage magic tree, destruction is limited in damage and at high levels very very weak, you require a huge amount of magicka to use expert spells therefore you are forced to use magic cost reducing enchantments.
A warrior on the other hand can have a very powerful weapon, has unlimited use of this weapon, can power attack, can use all enchantments to augment this weapons damage, can have max armour rating etc
If a mage could fire expert spells frequently then it would be on par with a warrior but mages can't cast 1 dual incinerate with 580 magicka.
even with free spells warriors do far more damage and are far better protected.

 

[Smarty]

A pure warrior can use poisons, but not make them. Reducing magic costs and increasing magic regen is not an exploit. I will give you that point for the enchanting argument, but the fact remains that it is possible. Using enchanting and or alchemy any build can mimic any other build fairly easily.

EDIT: indeed I did, and I hold nothing against you.

Like wrighty said below, even with unlimited magicka, you can't do as much DAMAGE, as a warrior. Therefore die faster.

I hold nothing against you either, in fact I love arguments.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I think a point that's worth making is mages are limited with their magic, whilst mages have an array of abilities this is only at high level and there's not enough perks to invest in every magic tree equally.
For example paralyse doesn't affect any undead or automatons and is only available at expert level, otherwise all alteration flesh spells are inferior to armour, except the master spell which is equal and only lasts 30 seconds with huge magicka cost.
Illusion doesn't work on undead or automatons until it is mastered, it's also fairly high magicka cost and doesn't affect a lot of enemies.
Conjuration can be powerful but only beyond expert level, and high level mages can banish or command your summons.

The main direct damage magic tree, destruction is limited in damage and at high levels very very weak, you require a huge amount of magicka to use expert spells therefore you are forced to use magic cost reducing enchantments.
A warrior on the other hand can have a very powerful weapon, has unlimited use of this weapon, can power attack, can use all enchantments to augment this weapons damage, can have max armour rating etc
If a mage could fire expert spells frequently then it would be on par with a warrior but mages can't cast 1 dual incinerate with 580 magicka.
even with free spells warriors do far more damage and are far better protected.

Destruction is indeed inferior to weapons damage wise, and alteration flesh spells are indeed inferior to armour, all of your other points are very weak

You don't have to invest in every magic tree, restoration, enchanting, illusion, and conjuration are the most important (I am a jack of all trades, and quite good at it).

If you can't paralyse them, pacify them. Are you not aware of the upper limits of illusion? I know you are, I saw your posts in that vampire thread. NOW you're arguing about it like it's a negative. The fact that it is late game only adds to a mage's power compared to a warrior's late game.

Necromancy is the most powerful form of conjuration. I can dead thrall any bandit( (just for one example) and turn them into a harbinger of doom and destruction.

Their armour rating won't help them against magic, and their damage will be irrelevent if illusion and paralyse are involved.

I will give you points on the destruction tree's low damage, and high cost of most spells. I will also give you tue fact that most of these abilities are very far into the skill trees. However, you can work around all of these disadvantages.

 

[Smarty]

Destruction is indeed inferior to weapons damage wise, and alteration flesh spells are indeed inferior to armour, all of your other points are very weak

You don't have to invest in every magic tree, restoration, enchanting, illusion, and conjuration are the most important (I am a jack of all trades, and quite good at it).

If you can't paralyse them, pacify them. Are you not aware of the upper limits of illusion? I know you are, I saw your posts in that vampire thread. NOW you're arguing about it like it's a negative. The fact that is late game only adds to a mage's power compared to a warrior's late game.

Necromancy is the most powerful form of conjuration. I can dead thrall any bandit( (just for one example) and turn them into a harbinger of doom and destruction.

Their armour rating won't help them against magic, and their damage will be irrelevent if illusion and paralyse are involved.

I will give you points on the destruction tree's low damage, and high cost of most spells. I will also give you tue fact that most of these abilities are very far into the skill trees. However, you can work around all of these disadvantages.

Pacify doesn't work on all opponents, and neither does paralyse, and neither does damage... You need bodies for necromancy, warriors don't require bodies... The only work around I know of is mods or exploits. If there is another work around, please do post it.

 

[Adam Belmont]

Even with 100% cost reduction you have to spam your spells to defeat an enemy, it's not only about the magic lower damage but the boringness it becomes at higher levels. What some people don't understand is that in any fantasy game, a high level mage is extremely overpowered (it's not equal to warriors, they are much more powerful than warriors). The Master destruction spells exists, they are powerfull, but who uses them frequently? No one, and that's because it is impractical, impossible to use against a dragon or in intensive combat situations. Now I'm talking about "realism" (it's in quotes, ok?) in the fantasy games, Mages are considered to be powerfull beings, that's not what happens in Skyrim (but happened in Morrowind and Oblivion). With my warrior, when I find myself fighting a wizard I play with him, because I know he'll do me no harm and hardly will kill me. I love Skyrim, but you guys must agree that they've made this game too easy and somewhat unbalanced when it comes to Warrior and Mages. When a game needs a mod to make it harder, that's not normal.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Pacify doesn't work on all opponents, and neither does paralyse, and neither does damage... You need bodies for necromancy, warriors don't require bodies... The only work around I know of is mods or exploits. If there is another work around, please do post it.

Pacify does work on ALL opponents below about level 70. Damage does also, unless your talking about ancano. Bodies are readily in supply in my game, I don't know about you soft hearted warriors.

 

[wrighty]

Destruction is indeed inferior to weapons damage wise, and alteration flesh spells are indeed inferior to armour, all of your other points are very weak

You don't have to invest in every magic tree, restoration, enchanting, illusion, and conjuration are the most important (I am a jack of all trades, and quite good at it).

If you can't paralyse them, pacify them. Are you not aware of the upper limits of illusion? I know you are, I saw your posts in that vampire thread. NOW you're arguing about it like it's a negative. The fact that is late game only adds to a mage's power compared to a warrior's late game.

Necromancy is the most powerful form of conjuration. I can dead thrall any bandit( (just for one example) and turn them into a harbinger of doom and destruction.

Their armour rating won't help them against magic, and their damage will be irrelevent if illusion and paralyse are involved.

I will give you points on the destruction tree's low damage, and high cost of most spells. I will also give you tue fact that most of these abilities are very far into the skill trees. However, you can work around all of these disadvantages.

I don't think my points are weak but we all have different opinions.
Take paralysis for example if you can't paralyse it you can't calm it either in most cases at least not until late game, by the time you are 100 illusion (playing legit) and invested a hell of a lot of perks you've probably played through most of the game and it's a little late.
Even with master of the mind your magicka will limit you to calming 1 or max 2 powerful enemies, there are many, many situations with more than 2 enemies. Even if you calm them as soon as you hit them they become hostile, for example I calm a deathlord, hit it with incinerate, now it's hostile and all of my magicka is gone, barely a dent in it's health.
Also the toughest enemies are resistant to all illusion and paralyse spells.

For conjuration it can become powerful I agree and it's probably the best option for a mage, but the enemies you can thrall are limited by type and level, dead thrall is a massively magicka intensive spell that needs 2 hands so it's not useable in combat.
Say i have 2 powerful mages as thralls, then bam 1 dragon breath attack/arrow etc and they are both dead, especially on master.
The only spell I will admit is always useful and very powerful is dremora lord. Even with that though, your relying on getting to expert conjuration for any real offensive ability.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Even with 100% cost reduction you have to spam your spells to defeat an enemy, it's not only about the magic lower damage but the boringness it becomes at higher levels. What some people don't understand is that in any fantasy game, a high level mage is extremely overpowered (it's not equal to warriors, they are much more powerful than warriors). The Master destruction spells exists, they are powerfull, but who uses them frequently? No one, and that's because it is impractical, impossible to use against a dragon or in intensive combat situations. Now I'm talking about "realism" (it's in quotes, ok?) in the fantasy games, Mages are considered to be powerfull beings, that's not what happens in Skyrim (but happened in Morrowind and Oblivion). With my warrior, when I find myself fighting a wizard I play with him, because I know he'll do me no harm and hardly will kill me. I love Skyrim, but you guys must agree that they've made this game too easy and somewhat unbalanced when it comes to Warrior and Mages. When a game needs a mod to make it harder, that's not normal.

You don't need mods to make it harder, just use inferior gear and etc etc...

The reason why I'm a jack of all trades is so I can also be a warrior. I agree that the damage is insanely low and master level spells a joke at best. Except for dead thrall, but even that has stupid limits.

 

[Psiberzerker]

I think a point that's worth making is mages are limited with their magic, whilst mages have an array of abilities this is only at high level and there's not enough perks to invest in every magic tree equally.
For example paralyse doesn't affect any undead or automatons and is only available at expert level, otherwise all alteration flesh spells are inferior to armour, except the master spell which is equal and only lasts 30 seconds with huge magicka cost.
Illusion doesn't work on undead or automatons until it is mastered, it's also fairly high magicka cost and doesn't affect a lot of enemies.
Conjuration can be powerful but only beyond expert level, and high level mages can banish or command your summons.

The main direct damage magic tree, destruction is limited in damage and at high levels very very weak, you require a huge amount of magicka to use expert spells therefore you are forced to use magic cost reducing enchantments.
A warrior on the other hand can have a very powerful weapon, has unlimited use of this weapon, can power attack, can use all enchantments to augment this weapons damage, can have max armour rating etc
If a mage could fire expert spells frequently then it would be on par with a warrior but mages can't cast 1 dual incinerate with 580 magicka.
even with free spells warriors do far more damage and are far better protected.

OK, I'm not sure why we're comparing a PURE mage with an Enchanting warrior. Sure, the warrior Can find enchanted gear, or even take up Enchanting, but in that case, there's no reason a Mage can't use Armor, or a better weapon than a dagger, for instance.

2 Stop Dual Casting as the only attack. If you shoot 1 Incinerate, then another while they're on fire, the 15 ectra damage you get out of Dual Casting is made up for by the On Fire status effect. Use Dual Casting ONLY for impact, your Magicka will last longer, and so will you.

There's Magicka reduction in the game, it goes up with level, so that when you do get up to Incinerate, you should have the Robes, and [ossibly a Circlet to cast them. The operative word is REDUCTION. For total elimination, you either have to Enchant your own, or exploit Radient for Peerless Gear. What this suggests to me is that Magicka Elimination is a late game thing. Untill you get it, how do you even survive to that point without understanding the Basics of Magicka Management? You can do it with Stealth, presumably you can watch your Health Bar before it gets down to 0, so what's the problem?

I know, Desrruction doesn't do enough damage. This makes it more difficult. Why are you playing on Master in the first place if you didn't want it to be difficulty? To prove what a badass you are? I regret to inform you that Destruction is not the way to go to be a badass. You're least effective up close where the badasses are, you actually have a Damage Cap, and you can't swing indefinitely. OTOH, if you wanted to be a badass Player, instead of having a character that does it all for you, then yoou'd go ahead and learn how to use Destruction as is. All I hear is a bunch of whining that it's not powerful enough.

Badasses don't whine.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

I don't think my points are weak but we all have different opinions.
Take paralysis for example if you can't paralyse it you can't calm it either in most cases at least not until late game, by the time you are 100 illusion (playing legit) and invested a hell of a lot of perks you've probably played through most of the game and it's a little late.
Even with master of the mind your magicka will limit you to calming 1 or max 2 powerful enemies, there are many, many situations with more than 2 enemies. Even if you calm them as soon as you hit them they become hostile, for example I calm a deathlord, hit it with incinerate, now it's hostile and all of my magicka is gone, barely a dent in it's health.
Also the toughest enemies are resistant to all illusion and paralyse spells.

For conjuration it can become powerful I agree and it's probably the best option for a mage, but the enemies you can thrall are limited by type and level, dead thrall is a massively magicka intensive spell that needs 2 hands so it's not useable in combat.
Say i have 2 powerful mages as thralls, then bam 1 dragon breath attack/arrow etc and they are both dead, especially on master.
The only spell I will admit is always useful and very powerful is dremora lord. Even with that though, your relying on getting to expert conjuration for any real offensive ability.

Depends on how commited you are to levelling up. Also dependant on if you have magic reduction costs (not very common at all early game, I'll give you that) and most ALL of the toughest enemies are susceptible to illusion. Especially when combined with alchemy. If you have two powerful Volkihar Vampire dead thralls with enchanted gear and weapons, there is very little that can get in your way. Also, early game necromancy is at its most powerful. It all depends on how commited you are to getting those level ups. It IS possible to get all these skills relatively early.