Skyrims realism, or your thoughts on it and the overpowerness.

[Andre2807]

If you are complaining about the fact that Melee unfair in the fact that you don't need anything to use it, except for a weapon, then this is actually a worthless discussion.

Most RPG's are made like this. Mages uses Magica or Mana, and Warriors uses Weapons. This is a no discussion debate as it has always been like this.

While the warrior swings his sword, a mage blast it with fire.
While the warrior swings his sword, a mage blast it with lightning.
While the warrior swings his sword, a mage blast it with frost.
While the warrior swings his sword, a mage can summon help.
While the warrior swings his sword, a mage can turn undead.
While the warrior swings his sword, a mage can calm enemies.
While the warrior swings his sword, a mage can cause enemies to go in a frenzy.

Mages are powerful and versatile, while most warriors needs additional skills or perks to get there. Why do you think does a Warrior often take Restoration for healing. Or enchanting to have Magic Effects. Mages has all these capabilities that they can use to kill their opponents. Warriors don't have that. They are stuck with the same thing, unless they branch out.

One Handed, without Smithing enhancements is weak to begin with, until you get something like Skyforge Steel Sword, and even then, it's still weak. With Destruction you can hit enemies from a distance, slow them, drain their magica and/or Stamina. One Handed are forced to get up close and personal.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages, we just have to deal with it.

 

[Twiffle]

Just one point ,, ,, Skyrim is set on a mythical world know as Nim, ,, ,, perhaps the rules are different to earth !!!!

 

[Speak Easy]

...I mean it's a game with elves,orcs and talking cats..i never once expected realism. If anything I was surprised at how realistic Skyrim actually was when I picked it up. I'm definately gunna give the developers the benefit of the doubt as it's presumably incredibly difficult to create a game like this in 3 1/2 years...

 

[Dagmar]

Which destruction perks?

Two Augmented perks and the Dual Casting perk.

We already know that we disagree on this, the smithing/alchemy/enchanting loop is in the game too so that's not an exploit?

No it's not. You simply don't know what the definition of an exploit is. Using intended game mechanics isn't a an exploit even if it results in your character being overpowered. That's simply illustrative of game mechanics that are arguably bad.

Words have contextual meaning not random ones you may want to assign for convenience of your arguments. The term exploit in video gaming originates from MMOG's and refers to unintended game mechanics, i.e. something doing something in a game that it clearly wasn't meant to do, that players use for advantage over other players. The term was co opted by non MMOG players for solo games to simply refer to getting an advantage from unintended game mechanics without the concept of unfairness because it's not applicable in a single player game.

There's nothing unintended going on in the using the crafting loop. Being able to craft 4 pieces of apparel with 25% Fortify Alchemy enchantments is an intended game mechanic. Being able to make potions with stronger Alchemy effects with that gear is also an intended game mechanic, including Fortify Enchanting potions which result in the ability to make stronger Fortify Alchemy gear. The fact they put hard caps on all of these at 29% for Fortify Alchemy and Smithing enchantments, 32% for Fortify Enchanting potions and 130% for Fortify Smithing potions further underscores the otherwise obvious fact that these are intended game mechanics. The only way you can break those hard caps is by using actual exploits such as the Fortify Restoration potion which does something more and significantly different than it says it can do and also stacks when no other potion effect stacks.

....glitches often are just to give you the option..

It's not a glitch. If you think it is you don't have a firm grasp of the meaning of the word.

...the magicka bar is there for a reason...

Which does nothing to refute the fact that 100% Magicka cost reduction is intended to be an achievable effect.

Your sword does 85 damage similar to 1 incinerate spell, except with over 500 magicka I can't dual cast 1, at high level it might take 15 of these for a kill, whilst you can swing your sword all day without stamina for 85 damage a swing.

Your inability to cast destruction spells with high repetition is by your choice. The game mechanics are there. You just don't want to use them. It's really that simple. There are lots of players with Destruction mages that have no problem throwing a dozen incinerate spells at an enemy because they max out Fortify Destruction enchantments or use a combination of them with other things that mitigate Magicka use such as Fortify Magicka Regeneration, Magic Absorption, Restore Magicka potions, Elsweyr Fondue etc.

It says a lot when I'm stuck using only apprentice level spells at 85 destruction skill.

It says you chose a build that leaves you stuck using apprentice level spells at 85 Destruction skill.

If you really want to have fun, try destruction on master, it's an absolute joke. Again, yes it can be done but get to around level 30-40 even with 100% cost reduction, your spamming spells all day because they're so weak

I have a mage that uses Destruction magic and I always play on Master difficulty. The game plays fine for me. There's nothing notably different in how long it takes me to kill enemies compared to my other characters but then again I don't have melee characters walking around with weapons that have displayed damages of 300 to 800 either because it would be boring.

 

[Smarty]

Which destruction perks?

We already know that we disagree on this, the smithing/alchemy/enchanting loop is in the game too so that's not an exploit?
I'm not saying that 100% cost reduction wasn't deliberately left in the game, glitches often are just to give you the option, but I'm saying that it shouldn't be necessary, the magicka bar is there for a reason.
Your sword does 85 damage similar to 1 incinerate spell, except with over 500 magicka I can't dual cast 1, at high level it might take 15 of these for a kill, whilst you can swing your sword all day without stamina for 85 damage a swing.
Even with 100% cost reduction the damage is pitiful at high level, far inferior to any other combat style.
Don't get me wrong, I like mages and I still play them, mainly due to the new ignite spell, more spells need to be like this, most spells have a ridiculously high magicka cost like incinerate/fireball, they make fire bolt still the most cost effective spell through the entire game. If spells were just efficient damage/magicka wise then that would go along way.
It says a lot when I'm stuck using only apprentice level spells at 85 destruction skill. All they had to do was make destruction damage increase with level.
If you really want to have fun, try destruction on master, it's an absolute joke. Again, yes it can be done but get to around level 30-40 even with 100% cost reduction, your spamming spells all day because they're so weak

You are not the only one who believe magic in general, particularly destruction, to be underpowered.
You could try Mighty Magic, if you are on PC. It scales spells, and there is a module that replaces the "reduce cost" enchantment with "magnify magnitude". It also does the same thing for "Fortify X" potions, where X is a magic school. Therefore removing the zero cost "exploit" and providing a way to increase spell damage, two birds with one stone. It also includes many other modules that improve magic, adds new spells, rework some spells that were underpowered etc.

EDIT: typo

 

[Medea]

When you start to argue that a video game or rpgs in general need to be more realistic, you are going to constantly back yourself into a corner. Magic itself breaks all the laws of physics. Running around for a week without drinking or eating is impossible. Dragons don't exist. If you're hit by a fireball or lightning bolt, all of your gear is likely going to be destroyed too.

It's just like in Dungeons and Dragons, where wearing heavier armor makes you harder to hit.

Or comic books, where Superman can catch Lois Lane as she's falling from a skyscraper, and not completely obliterate her. Not to mention the fact that Superman can even exist. There is no justification for his powers.

 

[Twiffle]

well i was going to add more,,but the bully is here now so i wont watch anymore

 

[Smarty]

When you start to argue that a video game or rpgs in general need to be more realistic, you are going to constantly back yourself into a corner. Magic itself breaks all the laws of physics. Running around for a week without drinking or eating is impossible. Dragons don't exist. If you're hit by a fireball or lightning bolt, all of your gear is likely going to be destroyed too.

It's just like in Dungeons and Dragons, where wearing heavier armor makes you harder to hit.

Or comic books, where Superman can catch Lois Lane as she's falling from a skyscraper, and not completely obliterate her. Not to mention the fact that Superman can even exist. There is no justification for his powers.

Actually I believe the justification for superman's power is the fact he is from krypton (another planet).
But I do get your point.

 

[Medea]

well i was going to add more,,but the bully is here now so i wont watch anymore

Where is this coming from? How does simply disagreeing make someone a bully?

 

[Adam Belmont]

Two Augmented perks and the Dual Casting perk.
No it's not. You simply don't know what the definition of an exploit is. Using intended game mechanics isn't a an exploit even if it results in your character being overpowered. That's simply illustrative of game mechanics that are arguably bad.

Words have contextual meaning not random ones you may want to assign for convenience of your arguments. The term exploit in video gaming originates from MMOG's and refers to unintended game mechanics, i.e. something doing something in a game that it clearly wasn't meant to do, that players use for advantage over other players. The term was co opted by non MMOG players for solo games to simply refer to getting an advantage from unintended game mechanics without the concept of unfairness because it's not applicable in a single player game.

There's nothing unintended going on in the using the crafting loop. Being able to craft 4 pieces of apparel with 25% Fortify Alchemy enchantments is an intended game mechanic. Being able to make potions with stronger Alchemy effects with that gear is also an intended game mechanic, including Fortify Enchanting potions which result in the ability to make stronger Fortify Alchemy gear. The fact they put hard caps on all of these at 29% for Fortify Alchemy and Smithing enchantments, 32% for Fortify Enchanting potions and 130% for Fortify Smithing potions further underscores the otherwise obvious fact that these are intended game mechanics. The only way you can break those hard caps is by using actual exploits such as the Fortify Restoration potion which does something more and significantly different than it says it can do and also stacks when no other potion effect stacks.
It's not a glitch. If you think it is you don't have a firm grasp of the meaning of the word.
Which does nothing to refute the fact that 100% Magicka cost reduction is intended to be an achievable effect.
Your inability to cast destruction spells with high repetition is by your choice. The game mechanics are there. You just don't want to use them. It's really that simple. There are lots of players with Destruction mages that have no problem throwing a dozen incinerate spells at an enemy because they max out Fortify Destruction enchantments or use a combination of them with other things that mitigate Magicka use such as Fortify Magicka Regeneration, Magic Absorption, Restore Magicka potions, Elsweyr Fondue etc.
It says you chose a build that leaves you stuck using apprentice level spells at 85 Destruction skill.
I have a mage that uses Destruction magic and I always play on Master difficulty. The game plays fine for me. There's nothing notably different in how long it takes me to kill enemies compared to my other characters but then again I don't have melee characters walking around with weapons that have displayed damages of 300 to 800 either because it would be boring.

You still can't one hit kill anything on master with magic, I think that's his point. Using enchanting/smithing/alchemy makes it possible to do that with combat skills. Magic in Skyrim IS underpowered.

 

[Medea]

Magic might not do as much damage as a powerful weapon in Skyrim, but you can cast spells from a safe distance. Melee fighting puts you in the thick of the action. If magic did as much damage as weapons in Skyrim at high levels, no one would use melee because then magic would be overpowered.

 

[Dagmar]

You still can't one hit kill anything on master with magic, I think that's his point. Using enchanting/smithing/alchemy makes it possible to do that with combat skills. Magic in Skyrim IS underpowered.

There's not a lot you can kill on Master setting at higher levels in general unless you have weapons with extremely high displayed damage (250 plus) and use power attacks, or have a stealth build. Depending on the player you ask that's evidence that melee weapons and stealth builds are overpowered rather than magic being underpowered.

To me underpowered means that it's difficult to handle the game at Master difficulty with magic and I don't find it particularly difficult at all. I suppose if my other characters were running around with Daedric weapons that did 500 plus points of damage it would be comparatively difficult but it wouldn't change the fact that it's very playable.

 

[Smarty]

Magic might not do as much damage as a powerful weapon in Skyrim, but you can cast spells from a safe distance. Melee fighting puts you in the thick of the action. If magic did as much damage as weapons in Skyrim at high levels, no one would use melee because then magic would be overpowered.

Safe from mele? Depends where, in tight places it is not. Two-handers also have higher range. And assasins are quite fast.
Safe from magic? Nope, particularly if you're a high elf.
Safe from bow/crossbow? Nope, especially because most mage have lower armor rating than warriors.
Safe from dragons? Nope, they have ranged attacks.

Distance amounts to nothing in most situations, and mages don't even have the benefit of slow poisons/enchants. Frost/stamina damage is mostly useless at higher levels, where mages are at their weakest (IMHO).

The only valid argument about distance is if the mage in question use invisibility/sneak to regen his/her magicka. And then again, warriors have the advantage because they can still attack while their stamina bar is empty.

EDIT: Warriors usually have much higher stamina than mages, therefore running is pointless. Backward running is also much slower than forward running.

 

[ShangTsung]

i prefer realism when i play any action based game, with that said on skyrim imo it depends on the weapon, i personally ALWAYS use enchantments to make my bows one hit kills simply cause its unrealistic for it not to be, even if someone took an arrow to the knee in reality they're not going to be fighting after that.. as for swords and such it varies, occasionally i use small fortify glitched potions to make my swords and axes around the 900 mark so that 3 or 4 hits will take down most low level npc's such as bandits, i always keep magicka infinite cause the npc mages have unlimited so to me i'm just evening the odds with that one, same with shouts.. as for stamina and carry weight i have some characters i play only when i'm bored and on those i like to keep both unlimited, but on a more serious based character i prefer to build on that as i play.. i think it depends on the gamer and their style of play, for example- i don't use infinite health or the oghma infinium to 81 glitch cause i find playing like that utterly stupid however i'm not going to knock someone who DOES enjoy having advantages like that and tell them their way of playing is wrong cause skyrim is a fantasy game at its core afterall and just cause i enjoy playing one way doesn't mean its set in stone for everyone, this is why i don't understand those selfish pro legit players who beg bethesda to patch all glitches and scream "cheater" at anyone who mods anything.. people seem to forget that different gamers have different opinions and to someone who enjoys a totally different approach to how you play your way may likely seem just as obsurd to them as theirs does to you..

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Destruction magic is the only magic that is underpowered in any way, I will admit that. However, by your logic, it is not overpowered to be able to paralyse that guy with the sword indefinitely over and over again, or taking away his ability to fight back. Who needs sneak level when you have invisibility and the ability to silence all movement? Need crowd control? With illusion you can make that crowd kill itself. There is nothing underpoweres about magic in Skyrim, ESPECIALLY late game. Destruction magic on its own? I'll give you that one. But what kind of devoted spellcaster only focuses on one school???

With destruction, you can slow that melee warrior down to a snail's pace and drain all of its stamina. You can continously stun and stagger them. It's not the skill that is the problem, it is the user.

Edit: I did not see there was a page two until after I wrote this. Sorry

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Safe from mele? Depends where, in tight places it is not. Two-handers also have higher range. And assasins are quite fast.
Safe from magic? Nope, particularly if you're a high elf.
Safe from bow/crossbow? Nope, especially because most mage have lower armor rating than warriors.
Safe from dragons? Nope, they have ranged attacks.

Distance amounts to nothing in most situations, and mages don't even have the benefit of slow poisons/enchants. Frost/stamina damage is mostly useless at higher levels, where mages are at their weakest (IMHO).

The only valid argument about distance is if the mage in question use invisibility/sneak to regen his/her magicka. And then again, warriors have the advantage because they can still attack while their stamina bar is empty.

EDIT: Warriors usually have much higher stamina than mages, therefore running is pointless. Backward running is also much slower than forward running.

Wards can counteract most ranged based magic, including dragons. You can also heal yourself from those arrows and bolts. If you include enchanting, magic is very overpowered. In close quarters why do I nees to worry about that big sword when I can paralyse them, walk over to them, calmly pickpocket it from them, and wack em with it for easy XP?

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

Me thinks we need to find a new thread for the magic discussion, but I love skyrim. Most other games don't compare because of the amount of freedom and complexity. It has the best voice acting of any RPG imho.

 

[ShangTsung]

Wards can counteract most ranged based magic, including dragons. You can also heal yourself from those arrows and bolts. If you include enchanting, magic is very overpowered. In close quarters why do I nees to worry about that big sword when I can paralyse them, walk over to them, calmly pickpocket it from them, and wack em with it for easy XP?

whaa... you can pickpocket opponents in the middle of combat when their paralysed??? wow.. i was not aware of that! you just gave me an idea for a whole new way of playing m8.. lol

 

[Psiberzerker]

As far as the OPness, it's almost all focussed on crafting. Don't craft, and you won't become OP. Destruction is a little light at high level, but that's if you level up that high. I know, you should be able to get to 81, and still have Destruction competetive, but unfortunately, you can't.

And yeah, the Crafting Loop is an exploit. You don't like the term Glitch? Fine, you're taking advantage of it, and you know it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that anyone who can play on Master with Crafting, but not on Expert without it is a little too dependent on Crafting. It's not "Awesome" if it makes you a weak player, or keeps you from becoming a good one. 100% off Destruction is the same thing, "I don't need Magicka." You actually believe that the Dev team intentionally left this in as a consolation for making the Grindstone so powerful?

Unfortunately, the answer is Mods. Not the ones that make you unstoppable, but there are a few that are balanced, or make the game balanced.

I'm not even getting into "Realism." It's a fantasy game, if it were realistic, we wouldn't play it. No 1 man can walk up to 50 armed, and trained warriors, and win through. I know, I've seen the Action Movies, and no, those are not Realistic. Regardless of how many weapons, and skills you got, magic, shouts, and the powers of all gods watching over you, nobody's that good.

 

[The Honorable Gidian Diva of Sass]

whaa... you can pickpocket opponents in the middle of combat when their paralysed??? wow.. i was not aware of that! you just gave me an idea for a whole new way of playing m8.. lol

Yes, go into sneak mode and start pushing the pickpocket button a lot around their hips where someone would wear a belt. Most of the time it will work eventually, but if it doesn't just paralyse them and try again.